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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Trick coin trickery » » U3F2? » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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MickeyPainless
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Hart,
I really don't think this pot needs additional stirring!
Just my opinion!
Mick
Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-10-26 18:58, MickeyPainless wrote:
Hart,
I really don't think this pot needs additional stirring!
Just my opinion!
Mick


Sorry Mickey, just think that this should be hashed out a little seeing that Café members are exposed to Townsend/VCA drama almost on a daily basis...and the Genii thing was driving me nuts because Townsend and other were treating the article like god's written word when really it was just Townsend's history as he sees it. I think we should hear other views without having to wait for another issue of Genii...
-Hart

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Jonathan Townsend
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I have every confidence BobK's product will be something fine. That's his thing- to put out great products.

Same as I expect Thomas Wayne to craft wonderful things. I've heard his wood work is great and nothing but praise for something he made that looks like a saltshaker.

Since the Café is about magicians helping magicians I'm offering this as well:

Nobody cares how much you know till they know how much you care.

It's not my original advice though I feel it applies here.

For example, recently we had to watch (you can still recover the thread if you know how) as Steve Dusheck felt the need to defend his creation AS HIS while it IS being offered by others without his permission. Those who cared spoke up to support him. Those who don't care about such things were silent. As they did not care to defend the work of another magician's dear work I will have to leave things be without any trust for respect for others work. As to permissions, no means no.

Actions speak louder than words. And silence in a time of troubles speaks plainly to those who listen.

I'm sure the new version of the coins across will be a great product.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Al Angello
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Mr. Kohler
I'm a little new here, but what Steve Dushecks effect are you talking about?
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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Jonathan Townsend
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Small note to TW: Eric Decamps was not and is not a close friend or confidant of mine. Anyone close would not be spreading rumors of my death. Nor would anyone in whom I confide go claiming credit for something in Hoffmann's More Magic or its trivial application to another routine. I would have let them know its source and also let them know that I would speak out if they tried to make claim to another's work, in this case Hoffmann's.

Eric is a fine magician and I wish him the best in magic.

No idea what to say about the homoerotic fantasies you claim to experience involving me. I wish you the best and regret to inform you that those fantasies will have to stay fantasies.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-10-26 19:40, Al Angello wrote:
Mr. Kohler
I'm a little new here, but what Steve Dushecks effect are you talking about?


I believe he was talking about a gaff that Steve created...
-Hart

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Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-10-26 18:11, Hart Keene wrote:
And Jonathan, I think every magician on the Café(in the world for that matter) knows that you claim VCA as your creation. That being said, what do you want? Not being rude but I really don't know. Do you want royalties? Permission to publish anything that has to do with VCA/3 fly? Just your name mentioned in the credits? What? We can all see that is a very sore subject with you but how do we attempt to make it alright?



Sorry to quote myself Jonathan, but I really am curious as to what you want out of your creation...Sorry if you have answered this before.

Another thing, why did you wait so long to clear the air in Genii? If you suspected theft why didn't you just publish your routine?
-Hart

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Jonathan Townsend
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Kindly address off topic issues on another thread and let's keep the personal questions to PM.

This thread is about Bob's soon to be released version of the coins across.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-10-26 19:59, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Kindly address off topic issues on another thread and let's keep the personal questions to PM.

This thread is about Bob's soon to be released version of the coins across.


Good point. Guess the thread just got me wondering....Sorry all.
-Hart

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magicandsoul
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Quote:
On 2007-10-26 20:03, Hart Keene wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-10-26 19:59, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Kindly address off topic issues on another thread and let's keep the personal questions to PM.

This thread is about Bob's soon to be released version of the coins across.


Good point. Guess the thread just got me wondering....Sorry all.

Wrong! Your post is perfectly reasonable. Mr J Townsend seems to think that thread discussion is not allowed to evolve unless it is only him that decides to discuss matters beyond the scope of the thread topic (i.e. homoerotic blah blah blah... what was that all about??)

I'm just glad to finally know the truth. I had always wondered why the 4 Horsemen (Roth, Latta, Gallo, Rubenstein) from NY Seminar failed to even mention JT (or his version of events) on their Coins Across DVD during a panel discussion of 3FLY and now I know.

Thank you Mr Kohler and thank you Mr Wayne

M&S
Chad Barnard
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Here's one fact that's constantly overlooked. In his 1991 ThreeFly release, Chris Kenner says that ThreeFly had been a pet trick of his since 1986. Well how could that be, since Jonathan showed it to him and Kohler at a 1987 convention?

In the COINvention DVD Kenner says that he didn't finally hit upon his "ThreeFly" until well after being shown JT's VCA. So how could it be 86 again?

This has nothing to do with who invented what handling. My question is that if the first sentence of the released instructions contains an untruth how can everyone whole-heartedly accept Chris' account?

Also say that we all agree that Chris' version is a totally different animal that JT's. Chris still took an unpublished Geoff Latta vanish for the last vanish and released it with no crediting.

So if you don't think he stole from JT how do you explain his lifting of Latta's vanish?

Just some questions I have. Thanks.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2007-10-26 20:13, magicandsoul wrote:...
Wrong! Your post is perfectly reasonable. Mr J Townsend seems to think that thread discussion is not allowed to evolve unless it is only him that decides to discuss matters beyond the scope of the thread topic (i.e. homoerotic blah blah blah... what was that all about??)

I'm just glad to finally know the truth. I had always wondered why the 4 Horsemen (Roth, Latta, Gallo, Rubenstein) from NY Seminar failed to even mention JT (or his version of events) on their Coins Across DVD during a panel discussion of 3FLY and now I know.

...


First, it's off topic as I mentioned and invited others to have another thread for that discussion.

Did you also stop and wonder why the four horsemen did not speak out to support Steve Dusheck a few weeks ago? Now you know.

I can't condone scheduling a panel discussion of somebody else's private work for all and sundry to make claims upon what they should not even know exists much less be so impudent as to offer opinion in a discussion to which they were not invited. What's yours is yours and I hope to be as directly protective of your work and where I can, as supportive as I can of that which you choose to share.

Yes, finally you start to see some of the truths of this matter.

But even so, BobK does offer great products.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Chad Barnard
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At least we know Desouza has creator's backs.
Chad Barnard
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Ok so I watched Kenner's part on COINvention again. He says that he started doing the trick his way "a few years" after Jonathan showed VCA to him. So let's assume that Kenner is like every other person and knows the difference between a couple and a few.

That would put his invention of THreeFly, at the earliest, 1990. One year prior to publishing. This a long ways away from being a pet trick of his since 1986, like he says in his 1991 publication.

Now that's some "revisionism".

If you're going to respond to me, please let it concern the questions I've asked. I'm not interested in talking about JT right now. I would like an answer to obvious holes in Chris "creation" story, from all of you knowledgeable people.
magicblademan
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Why do people get so bitter,this forum is about magicians helping magicians...

This topic was about Bob K release but yet gets turned into an attack on JT.

I guess the only people who really know the TRUTH are JT and Chris Kenner .

Can we get back on topic regarding the U3F2! it's not that I don't care about VCA/3FLY but this to me is not for us to judge.

We were not there so to me it's who do you want to believe.
If you put the time in....you will achieve ...
Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2007-10-26 19:42, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Small note to TW: Eric Decamps was not and is not a close friend or confidant of mine. Anyone close would not be spreading rumors of my death. […]


You’re a liar Jonathan. Nothing you’ve claimed over the last five years has any real merit, and those lies are chasing you down now, like a big nasty dog getting ready to take a bite out of your ass.

I’ve just shown that you’ve lied all along about Chris Kenner “stealing” your routine. Turns out you taught it to him, and one thing we all know is THAT isn’t “stealing”.


On the Genii forum, November 11, 2002 12:25 PM, Brian Marks wrote
Quote:
“I like to end this thread on a happy note. Jon Townson is alive and well. I have confirmed this.”


On the Genii forum, November 11, 2002 01:23 PM, Richard Kaufman wrote:
Quote:
”Yes, I e-mailed the guy who registered under Jonathan Townsend's name on the forum today and he sent me a picture: it's definitely him!
I'm told by someone else who's had contact with him that he had no idea that his fingertips coins across has become the rage it has over the past decade. Never too late to take a bow!”


On the Genii forum, November 12, 2002 02:11 PM, Eric DeCamps wrote:
Quote:
Richard/Brian:

I just recieved an email from Jonathan also. It put a smile on my face!
It's also true Richard what you said, he had no idea the impact his original finger tip coins across has had on close up magic.
Now if we can only get him to give up the work on his in the hands Triumph handling!

Eric DeCamps


On the Genii forum, November 13, 2002 06:12 PM, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
Eric,

You have my permission to publish the triumph handling.
About the 'fingertip' coins across; What others have been inspired to do probably serves them better than my handling would or could. As you pointed out, my version is an intimate handling best suited to doing seated at a coffee table or standing among a small group. It is also routined from some techniques that require considerable practice.
At some point I will get a performance recorded.
I am interested to know what Chris Kenner has done with the trick.
I am sure your work will be well received when you publish it.

-Jon



Right then and there you had every opportunity to correct the Eric DeCamps’ assertion that you originally taught your “VCA” to him and to Chris Kenner. But you didn’t because that would have been a lie (and a awkward one at that). Otherwise you could have set the record “straight” right then and there. But the truth is… no one stole anything from you. It just took some time for you to realize that the only way to achieve the attention and validation you so desperately crave is to claimed you’d been wronged – stolen from. It’s shameful… and kind of embarrassing.

See, Jonathan, you’re caught in the same trap that all big liars get caught in – your lie just keeps growing and growing and eventually it slips out of your control. So now you’re forced to call Eric DeCamps a liar, when all he was trying to do is express his heartfelt feelings about who you were and what you had accomplished. You ought to be ashamed.

On the Genii forum, July 25, 2001 09:15 PM. Eric DeCamps wrote:
Quote:
” Just to help set the record straight on the background of Jonathan's routine, it was back around the Fall of 1986 when Jonathan first demonstrated and taught me his original routine. In the summer of 1987 at the last New York Magic Symposium honoring Dai Vernon that was held at the Sheraton Center in NYC, I introduced Jonathan to Chris Kenner. I remember Jonathan being so impressed with Kenner's work that he not only demonstrated the routine to Chris but he also taught it to him. As far as I know Chris and I were the only two people Jonathan ever taught the original workings of his routine.”


Later, it turns out that you also taught your routine to Curtis Kam. Are you going to deny that also, Jonathan?

You’ve falsely accused Chris Kenner of stealing from you and now you’re calling Eric DeCamps a liar. You’re running out of friends, Jonathan, and the new ones you’ve gathered will probably slip away as the truth finally emerges. Don’t you think it’s about time you came out… with the truth?

TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Chad Barnard
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So no answer to the researchable facts I presented?

So your posts just helped to prove that Jonathan didn't know that everyone was doing a version of his VCA until 2002. That might explain why his formal response was so late in coming.

Why would Genii, and Richard Kaufman, allow something so obviously a lie be printed in their pages? What do you say of their character?

I love people who argue in black and whites. This, like everything in life, is way more complicated than you make it out to be. I'm not taking a side one way or the other. I'm just using facts that I've and you've found and am trying to get some clarity.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2007-10-26 20:45, Thomas Wayne wrote:...
You’re a liar Jonathan. Nothing you’ve claimed over the last five years has any real merit, and those lies are chasing you down now, like a big nasty dog getting ready to take a bite out of your ass....


Nothing I've claimed? Not one thing? Really?

Don't know what to say about this latest fantasy about a dog and my ass. Shrugs.

Any simple questions ( no presuppositions or fancy stuff please ) ? happy to address that on another thread.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2007-10-26 20:45, Thomas Wayne wrote:...
Later, it turns out that you also taught your routine to Curtis Kam. Are you going to deny that also, Jonathan?...


That is a horribly phrased complex question presupposing something about a previous claim and some denial. Also something icky about asking me to disclose a confidence between myself and Curtis. But let's look at part of that rant and treat it as something close enough to a simple question to work with as an example.

One of the questions is: Jon, did you teach your coins across to Curtis Kam?

Curtis was sent by mail a copy of the three page writeup for review as it was intended as a lecture item a few weeks later.

Simple questions - simple answers. Honest too.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Al Angello
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Hart
I can think of three or four Dusheck tricks that demonstrated his originality. Is it the "copper to silver transpo", "Ringer", "Funkey", or "lethal tender"?
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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"Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone"
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