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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Trick coin trickery » » U3F2? » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Jonathan Townsend
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Pod, folks,

people's character speaks for itself if you listen.

do they post to help others?
will they share what is theirs to help others?
how do they respect the works of others in what they write?
how do they respect the feelings of others in the way they write?

very simple truths apparent to attentive readers.

By way of contrast, have a read of this thread and notice what happens when a similar subject comes up.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
MickeyPainless
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Al,
You used the short list! LOL
I was just watching Steve's 82 lecture vid again today and the stuff that always brings a huge smile to my mug are ones like "Waltzing Matilda", "By the Handful" and "Poly-Gripped" (Just to name a small few)! His creativity is unparalleled!
Sorry, for deterring from topic folks!
Mick
Jonathan Townsend
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Ossining, NY
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Quote:
On 2007-09-23 06:04, Peo Olsson wrote:
Anyone got an idea when Bob Kohler's U3F2 is coming out?


Bob says it's happening. Given his recent appearance here it may be even soon.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Chad Barnard
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Bob,

Is Schoolcraft or Wayne making the gaffs?
magicblademan
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uk
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Well I've spent my budget on gaffs for now ,plenty of stuff to keep me going.

Too many things I need to catch up with.
If you put the time in....you will achieve ...
Zhang
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I really do not know who to believe these days, nobody has even mentioned Gary Kurts, which supposedly was doing 3 fly even before Chris Kenner came up with his version.

Was the person who told me that wrong?

I would love to know.

thanks.

Wu.
Joshua Barrett
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Its hard to tell. living in cincinnati I know folks that knew chris and homer growing up and they saw chris do it in the way back , even the real way chris ends the routine (not the latta move). I think jon, chris, and bob have all added somthing to the plot in there own way that was unquie and I just don;t see this discussion ever getting anywhere
Thomas Wayne
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I said what I had to say, Jonathan, and I’ll summarize it for you here:

You didn't invent 3Fly, or any of its descendants, and nobody "stole" anything from you. You freely shared your ideas with others and they (naturally) built on those ideas, creating much better and more workable results in the process. Your ongoing accusations of "theft" and claims of prior invention are nothing but lies, designed to exaggerate your contribution to the art and to keep your name in the forefront.

The performance of magic is an art, and - like ALL art - is derivative. Claude Monet is often cited as the “father” of the impressionist art movement, but in fact his work was openly derivative of artists such as Eugene Delacroix, Eugène Boudin, Johan Jongkind and others. These artists discussed and shared their ideas with each other – in much the way you shared and discussed ideas with Eric DeCamps, Chris Kenner and Curtis Kam – and for any one of them to later claim sole proprietary rights to the end results of those collaborations would be absurd… just as your claims are absurd.

You gave up the right to claim “ownership” of your [inferior] “VCA” the very moment you began teaching it to others. Credit? Yes. Ownership? No.

In the time since you first taught your routine to others it has been much improved on – to the point where your original work has almost no value to the modern performer, other than as a questionable historical footnote. Many giant leaps have occurred in your absence, and did not require your input OR your permission. It’s the nature of evolution that the earlier, inferior species must give way to the more evolved, improved versions. This would have happened with or without your input – moving the Coins Across plot to a fingertip display was surely a matter of inevitability. Congratulations on being the first to discover this idea (if, in fact, you were the first), but don’t imagine for a minute it wouldn’t have happened without you.

The art has evolved, and there isn’t a single thing you can do about it. Your revisionist history remains suspect, at best, and is – in the final analysis – irrelevant. No one is going to stop performing the many, many fingertip versions of Coins Across, and no one is going feel duty bound to seek permission from you to do so.

So maybe you should consider ending your incessant whining and nasty accusations and just move on. Maybe, just maybe, you might have some tiny other little grain of a contribution you can offer the art – once you let go of the distant and murky past.

TW
(PS: As for you, “podcastrant”, I was finished discussing anything with you a long time ago.)
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Jonathan Townsend
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All things are 'inevitable' in hindsight.

Most of us live looking through our eyes.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Chad Barnard
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Haha...dispute anything I've said. For others you can check the sources I cite. Wayne stops discussing things with me because each time I've shot cannonball-sized holes through his "logic".
ASW
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Quote:
On 2007-10-27 00:11, podcastrant wrote:
Haha...dispute anything I've said. For others you can check the sources I cite. Wayne stops discussing things with me because each time I've shot cannonball-sized holes through his "logic".


I think you'll find he's not addressing responses to your posts because you are irrelevant. Everyone knows this issue is clearly between several select parties, and you're not not one of them, even if you enjoying trolling for responses.
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"

A magician on the Genii Forum

"I would respect VIPs if they respect history."

Hideo Kato
Bob Kohler
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The reason the dates apparently don't match up is that this happened at the NY Magic Symposium in the summer of 1984 not 1987.

It's true that Gary Kurtz was one of the earliest magicians working on the true 3 Fly plot. No doubt Gary's a top flight coinman and had a lot of great ideas with 3 Fly. But Chris Kenner as far as I know was the first to come up with what is now universally known as 3 Fly.

I've always found it very interesting that virtually none of the other magicians who've released versions of 3 Fly come under Jonathan's "scrutiny." There are a lot of routines in print, most years before I released Ultimate 3 Fly. Daryl, Kurtz, Paul Wilson, Lee Asher and others that are never mentioned or criticized. Please understand I don't think any of them deserve criticism about releasing and publishing their ideas.

In my case, I saw JT's routine and totally dismissed it as usable. I didn't consider doing any 3 Fly professionally and I tried them all until I worked out U3F. My performing style is test conditions. U3F was the first practical routine that allows the magician the ability to show "clean" with only 3 coins after each coin travels. I only worked on the routine from ideas Chris, Gary Kurtz and Daryl showed me years before.

Chris gave JT credit for his inspiration in the original release of 3 Fly. I gave JT credit as well on the U3F training tape because I thought he deserved a minor credit. I still do. I just don't think he's the father of 3 Fly, Chris Kenner is.
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Andi Peters
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Quote:
On 2007-10-26 22:01, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-09-23 06:04, Peo Olsson wrote:
Anyone got an idea when Bob Kohler's U3F2 is coming out?


Bob says it's happening. Given his recent appearance here it may be even soon.

Insightful Jonathan. Bob Kohler is the definition of marketing. He applies the four Ps to perfection, especially promotion.
Chad Barnard
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Thanks for the response Bob. I stand corrected. Have you determined who's making the gaffs yet?

ASW,

Really? Oh well, I'm happy in my irrelevance.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2007-10-27 02:57, Bob Kohler wrote:
The reason the dates apparently don't match up is that this happened at the NY Magic Symposium in the summer of 1984 not 1987....


What happened in the summer of 1984?

Quote:
In my case, I saw JT's routine and totally dismissed it as usable


I don't recall asking you to use my work at the Vernon Symposium in NY or down in DC a few months later.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Chad Barnard
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So it wasn't 84? My head is starting to spin.
enginemagic
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Looks like a good thing to see.Its good that Mr Kohler has did well for himself .Sounds as sucessful as the Kohler engine & plumbing company in Wisconsin USA.
Being good at getting your ideas & presintations to market takes a lot of hard work ,being strong,and confident in yourself.
theres a lot to learn out there,many interesting subjects,and hobbies to enjoy
zauber
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J. Townsend.... I don't know you, don't want to. But you are the penultimate provacateur. Just go away and leave the rest of the participants alone. We don't like your incessant psychobabble. Just go!!!! Nobody cares !!!!!
"I'm still learning."
-----Michelangelo
Hart Keene
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Well since the thread is continuing off course I would like to again ask, what does Jonathan want? Credit? royalties? permission? If he just wants credit for anything 3 fly then what is the real problem? Why cant we just give credit to both guys since technically they are both fathers? You could say that 3 fly has two dads...lol
-Hart

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Magician Portland Oregon
Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-10-27 12:20, zauber wrote:
J. Townsend.... I don't know you, don't want to. But you are the penultimate provacateur. Just go away and leave the rest of the participants alone. We don't like your incessant psychobabble. Just go!!!! Nobody cares !!!!!


Uh, what? Are you being sarcastic?
-Hart

Check out my website:
Magician Portland Oregon
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