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Hart Keene Inner circle Eugene, OR 1486 Posts |
The thing I have to wonder about is why Steve would have his friends consult with theory 11 yet comes here personally to publically tear into them...
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Steve Dusheck New user Hazleton, PA 46 Posts |
Hart, I cannot talk directly with the people from theory 11 because I am sick and must take a lot of medication. I cannot take any stress. People only want to talk on the phone when they don't want to put anything in writing.
I know more about all the hype going on than you do. You are only concerned about the reputations of a few of your theory 11 friends. You were not concerned about my reputation when you stated "you heard" I was difficult to do business with. When asked you didn't provide any names. You always have remarks such as "I am not sure if that will please Steve D." and saying that "DD should be removed from the market because it will leave a bad taste in the mouths of many magicians." I am very sick and only write on the magic Café when I take one of the pills I must take 4 times a day to keep calm. I did not ask my friends to talk with Theory 11 for me. One of them did it on his own because he felt it was important and he wanted to help me. The other, I did not want to mention but Jonathan did, discussed the problem on my behalf on his own also because he knows Jonathan and most of the people involved with theory 11. Both of the magicians who tried to help me, on their own, are people I know and trust. I did not make up the sales figures of 1,000 sets and 60 sets. That is what I was told by the two magicians trying to help me. If you are so concerned about the reputations of specific Theory 11 magicians give us their names, Hart, and I will tell you if they had an active part in putting out my effect and changing the time line in the DVD credits. You know nothing about me or my business ethics or even all the original tricks I marketed yet you keep trying to find faults with me. The theory 11 DVD will still have everyone on it giving full credit to Bueno when the gimmick and the major moves are mine. The apologies will be the standard we didn't know it was yours. No one had any idea that I had anything to do with the trick but they knew enough to include my name in the credits in such a way as to make my input seemed minor at most. You have never invented any top selling magic tricks, Hart, and you know nothing about the magic business. Your only contributions concern your idols at Theory 11. Your comments on the Café have done more harm to the Theory 11 image than anything anyone else has written. The Bueno modifications are minor and do not justify Theory 11 putting out my gimmick along with the DVD giving Bueno all the credit. They refused to give me any credit orally on the DVD. Why didn't Bueno perform his trick on the DVD? If he is taking all the credit why did they have to hire a professional magician? I am upset because two different people at Theory 11 made two different offers and presented two different solutions yet Jonathan didn't know about the other offer. Wayne said he has the utmost respect for me but no one at Theory 11 contacted me about the DD project. They would have seen how generous I am and not had to pay Bueno for his rehash of my trick. I don't know what all your motives are for always commenting about me Hart but you certainly make me dislike all the creative people at Theory 11 just knowing they are your friends. I have a bad heart problem. I'm sick and only considered taking the royalty if it would continue to be given to my family if I die. But having the credit taken from me and all the lies being told about me makes it difficult to trust them. I know not everyone at Theory 11 is unaware of my C/S Transpo as they claim. So tell me who your buddies at theory 11 are Hart and I'll fill you in. Jonathan, you know Marc is my friend and he is better qualified to talk with you at this time than I am. You said you could not make the simple change at the end of the DVD that I requested but somehow you could include my C/S Transpo routine to the end of that same DVD. As someone here recently said you did nothing illegal. It was just a mean thing to do to someone. I never did anything to anyone involved with Theory 11 to be treated as you have treated me. Didin't you read any of Bueno's comments on your site? I'm very sorry you didn't come to me earlier. After forty years I have a lot of additional routines with my gimmick. You only have one version on your DVD and it's for performing for 2 or 3 people directly in front of you. Steve
Steve Dusheck
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6065 Posts |
Hart,
I don't think that Steve HAS torn into T11 and as was posted earlier he even praised some of the work! As for why he has someone else handling the negotiations, I might assume it is for the same reason someone uses an attorney as a representative in legal matters! I know that in my own business dealings I often use a 2nd party for this very reason so as not to become emotionally involved! Mick |
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6065 Posts |
LOL, Steve was quicker on the draw in response!
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W:H V.I.P. 222 Posts |
I am almost at a loss for words.
"People only want to talk on the phone when they don't want to put anything in writing." - Steve Dusheck >> We have repeatedly written, including e/mails, PM's, and a hand-written letter. Both to you and to your friends whom tell us that you personally have asked them to speak on your behalf. "The theory 11 DVD will still have everyone on it giving full credit to Bueno when the gimmick and the major moves are mine." - Steve Dusheck >> I will state again: We are absolutely willing to re-edit the DVD to reflect the proper history. "The apologies will be the standard we didn't know it was yours. No one had any idea that I had anything to do with the trick but they knew enough to include my name in the credits in such a way as to make my input seemed minor at most. " >> Our apologies may seem standard to you, however, they are sincere. There was not a conscious attempt to make your input seem minor - there was simply ignorance on our part. For that we apologies & will do whatever it takes to right the situation. "The Bueno modifications are minor and do not justify Theory 11 putting out my gimmick along with the DVD giving Bueno all the credit. They refused to give me any credit orally on the DVD." - Steve Dusheck >> You are 100% correct. The modifications do not justify that. Once it was clear that we had made a mistake, we pulled the product. Furthermore, we did not REFUSE to give you any credit orally, rather, it was not known to us that we needed to. Again, ignorance - for that we are sorry & we are willing to correct the wrong. "Why didn't Bueno perform his trick on the DVD? If he is taking all the credit why did they have to hire a professional magician? " - Steve Dusheck >> ? "I am upset because two different people at Theory 11 made two different offers and presented two different solutions yet Jonathan didn't know about the other offer." - Steve Dusheck >> Jonathan is the only person who has made any official offer. We are not aware of a 2nd offer. Who spoke to you about this? "Wayne said he has the utmost respect for me but no one at Theory 11 contacted me about the DD project. They would have seen how generous I am and not had to pay Bueno for his rehash of my trick." - Steve Dusheck >> I'm sure that we would have seen how generous you are. You have been more than generous throughout your career, the magic community owes you a great deal. We absolutely would have and should have contacted you. We were not aware - again this is completely our fault, for which we accept complete responsibility. We thought that we had all the info / history of the Digital Dissolve - we were wrong. Again, we have implemented a system of checks and balances within T11 to ensure that we do not make this mistake again. "But having the credit taken from me and all the lies being told about me makes it difficult to trust them." - Steve Dusheck >> We did not knowingly take the credit from you - again we apologize for not doing enough homework. What lies have we told about you? "As someone here recently said you did nothing illegal. It was just a mean thing to do to someone. I never did anything to anyone involved with Theory 11 to be treated as you have treated me." - Steve Dusheck >> Steve, we are all sorry. This was not personal. We all know that you have not done anything to anyone involved with T11 & we apologize for the entire situation. I'm sorry that you feel you have been mis-treated. This is certainly not what we want - how can we fix the situation? "Jonathan, you know Marc is my friend and he is better qualified to talk with you at this time than I am. You said you could not make the simple change at the end of the DVD that I requested but somehow you could include my C/S Transpo routine to the end of that same DVD." - Steve Dusheck >> Again, we absolutely can and will change the edit of the DVD to reflect the truth. We are aware of the offer you made to us to include your original routine as well as additional handling. As we have said before, that is very generous of you & of course we are thrilled. In fact, up until reading your earlier post today, I was under the impression that we had reached a resolution. Why the change in opinion toward us? Steve, I hope you realize that we do have the upmost respect for you. This was not personal, but was an unfortunate mistake. You are right when you state that it is commonplace within our community for magicians to rip other magicians off, however, that IS NOT what we do. I suspect that T11 and yourself have a lot more in common than you might think. We are ON YOUR SIDE here. We did make a mistake and we want to make it right. We are not defending our mistake we are simply searching for a solution that will make it up to you - as well as set things right within the community. T11 was founded as a place by the artists for the artists. It is disappointing that this mistake was made - but we have learned from it. What can we do to make this up to you? Wayne Houchin |
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Hart Keene Inner circle Eugene, OR 1486 Posts |
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On 2007-11-23 14:55, Steve Dusheck wrote: Steve, I stand by my earlier post that the guys at theory 11 are very creative individuals who have and will put out many more ORIGINAL creations. I don't believe they needed your effect to make theory 11 successfull. Like they have said, they made a mistake and are trying the best they can to fix it. I think there was a serious mis-understanding between the group prior to the release of this effect but do you really feel that they INTENTIONALLY did this to hurt you? I just have a hard time swallowing that with their track records. Was there really that much to gain as opposed to what would be lossed by intentionally releasing your effect? Think about it... Steve, the reason I am on here is because they are being made to look like total villains and everyone was jumping in on the gangbang. I just didn't feel the same way so I spoke up. Take a look at my post count Steve, I am certainly not a "new" Café member who decided to join just to jump in on this fiasco. I don't even know most of the guys on theory 11. I do apologize for making the "difficult to deal with" comment a while back. Please know that the comment was not made by a member of theory 11. Since you keep bringing it up I will tell you that it was from a fellow Café member(who will remain nameless) who contacted you and wanted to pay you because he had purchased DD and felt bad. He had wanted to meet up with you briefly and was willing to pay you for your time as well. He said that your response was less than friendly. I assume it was during the beginning of this whole fiasco and when you were having the health problems. That being said it is totally understandable seeing that you were under a lot of stress. So that is where the comment came from, just so you know... I kind of resent the way your post was directed at me. I know as much as anybody else here, just because my posts don't favor you completely doesn't mean you need to single me out as "not knowing anything". I have just as much right to post my thoughts here as the next guy. |
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evolve629 Inner circle A stack of 3838 Posts |
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On 2007-11-23 15:32, W:H wrote: I really don't know what more is needed to ractify this; but Wayne and Theory 11 have done the right thing. I, for one, will continue both Steve's and Theroy 11's work as I have conviction in both!
One hundred percent of the shots you don't take don't go in - Wayne Gretzky
My favorite part is putting the gaffs in the spectators hands...it gives you that warm fuzzy feeling inside! - Bob Kohler |
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RCP Inner circle Two Minnie's in The Hell's Half Acre, The Republic of Texas 2183 Posts |
I hope the offers to rectify the wrongs are sincere. Until Steve Dusheck is satisfied that the wrong has been righted I will continue my boycott of Theory 11 and everyone associated. I will not be silent about it either and will make sure everyone I come across knows about it as well.
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
Not only should everyne involved with theory 11 credit Steve but pay him his royality rights......
this is Steves effectand his gimmick.over the years many of Steves effects have been ripped off , but this is the last straw.... Steve has been creating magic before some of you young hot shots on theory 11 were born..... the godfather |
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djkuttdecks Special user Portland 662 Posts |
I will be the first to tell you that personally I am NOT a T11 fan. I find most of their practices to have lack of ethics. I will not purchase anything from them and have been disappointed in them as a company as a whole. However, this opinion was formed the day it launched, and is only "re-enforced" by the ethics of DD. I also am mature enough to know that sometimes money and the love of it is successful in this life span and companies driven solely by its profit are not soon to fade (so t11 ain't giving up with a fight). However, in the case of DD... it's becoming a myriad of he said she said posts. So, here is where the rubber meets the road. Ethically speaking, "IF" T11 is telling the truth, and for some unbelievable reason SD just won't talk to them or whatever, then T11 is (in my ethical opinion) obligated to discontinue production of the product indefinitely and return royalties to SD that match if not surpass those in agreement to BJ when contracted for the DD project. After which consider the subject finished and there can be no more punitive damages. "IF" SD is speaking the truth (which given past records in comparison is most likely) T11 should man up and communicate properly to SD in a professional manner until an agreement is made about the release of the product under the T11 roof. Personally, I hope SD does not give them permission and the sales are discontinued... some times lessons learned the hard way are most valuable with creating ethical code in a fledgling company.
In the end, it comes down to this... it is really none of my business who IS or ISN'T telling the truth. The product is currently not available and the agreement between SD and T11 is NONE of my concern. If one day I see that DD is being released, I just want to know that SD gave the OK happy and willingly. I do not need to know his compensation and the details of the agreement, I only need to know that the proper creator of the effect agreed. If it doesn't release then I can only assume an agreement was never met and that's fine too... past is the past and we move on. I understand that the young bright rock stars of t11 feel compelled to "fix" the situation by coming on and explaining their side. It must be hard to convince grown ups with mortgages that you can properly, ethically, and profitably run a business (in a monkE sEE monkE do sort of way), instead of the multi-billion dollar cash cow known as American youth, who see them as idols and have fist fulls of mommy and daddy's guilt money to blow. It's tough eh? So... lesson learned, welcome to the kitchen. At this point I do not expect to see the return of "DD" with "BJ" from "T11" until "SD" gives the "OK" to "WH" and "JB". -"DJ" |
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts |
I think too many emails and pm's are the problem, send more real letters, and less emails so the man can gather the right things together
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Crimson-Death New user Since 2006 88 Posts |
I do not think, after all of this, that Theory11 as a whole purposely ripped off Mr Dusheck's orignal trick. It was not money nor the want of fame, but I think it was just the arrogance of one or two people who just did not want to believe who originated the gimmick in question, as it was stated by those one or two people in other forums. The evidence is there, enough as it is, for all to make up their minds.
No hearsay evidence here, all straight from the horse's mouth instead. Lack of proper communication among all the parties involved only exacerbate the problem, both in creating it and trying to solve it. But the intention to fix it is there so let us see how this ends...
Sleight of hand and twist of fate
On a bed of nails she makes me wait And I wait without you With or without you With or without you |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Well, truthfully the BS continues, different chapter but clearly the same book. I think it's been conclusively proven that T11 is a culprit. They made a "mistake" in the same way prison fulls of inmates have made mistakes. And you know, if you ask any inmate if he's guilty, well of course he isn't for any reason...
Those that supported T11 were clearly wrong as some of them posted here in response to David Regal's review of the matter. They still take some exception with all this, probable stubborness and the sting of just backing something foul they believed so much in. Like a mom believing in her son, then finding out he's the neighborhood drug dealer. She's mad and upset, but that's still her son and she decides to stick by him no matter what as best she can...Some of that is happening here. Hey Hart man, I believe in your right to your opinion, but again I ask you to personalize this somewhat...If all of this had happened to your dad or grandfather at such a point, would it be OK for such disrespect and tone to be allowed? I think you'd stand up forcefully for your grandfather on this, especially if he's in the right. Right??? But better yet, whether it's your family or not, why not just do the right thing by people? I think Steve Dusheck has been consistent here, honest and forthright...I think all that has been proven. He is guilty of nothing. T11 is certainly guilty of all of what started this string from the very beginning and it's been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Like I first said on all this quite a while back when helping to mount the charge and attack, this was about arrogance from a bunch of young ruffians...a street corner gang moving in to a new neighborhood (these guys aren't really tough, but you know what I mean here). Basically they tried to take-off an old man and he happen to fight them back in the alleyways. Some of us heard his faint voice here and gave pursuit, caught these guys at a dead-end and held them responsible. We chased them all because they all ran and were of the same hole, wore the same colors proudly. I don't say that all involved with T11 aren't creative thinkers etc., but that's not the point of all this, and if this were in a court of law those points wouldn't matter. Just like it didn't matter how great a bird doctor the Bird Man of Alcatraz was while he was doing his time for what he was doing it for - Irrelevent. I don't think Steve expects any great windfall from catching up with this particular confidence game and gang. But everyone is sorry when you catch them, no one ever meant to do what you catch them doing. And if you don't catch them, then it don't matter. But they were caught and made to answer for their trespasses, that appear to have been intentional to some degree. And BJ is not alone in the blame, as he did not do all of this by himself...it passed through several gates opened and then reinforced by others. Then protected by mouthpieces and assortments of friends of the family...a real syndicate. Anyway, I think it should be respected that of Steve's illness at this time. I think his reputation should be protected because it has been found to be absolutely legit. If you really knew of this guy, you'd know he is an amazing creator of magic, been doing it longer then many have been alive or could walk and talk around here. He has done nothing but added greatly to this art form. He certainly deserves better than he got in so many ways here.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Hart Keene Inner circle Eugene, OR 1486 Posts |
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On 2007-11-24 13:17, Mb217 wrote: Mb, you like to use a lot of analogies in your posts. I think most will agree they are pretty outrageous...but to each their own. Remember at the end of the day we are talking about a *** coin trick. |
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dancingm0nk3y New user 88 Posts |
I still don't see how they can claim ignorance when they credited Steve Duscheck on the DVD. If they knew of his involvement with the gaff, but didn't bother to check what routines he used it in then this seems like negligence to the point of unscrupulousness.
On another note, I am glad that at least one of the artists from T11 came here to comment (thank you Wayne Houchin). T11 was launched on the faces and REPUTATIONS of the artists involved. I gave them the benefit of the doubt because of the names involved. Now I feel like I've been duped and lied to by some of my magic heroes. Clay
-- Clay
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RCP Inner circle Two Minnie's in The Hell's Half Acre, The Republic of Texas 2183 Posts |
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On 2007-11-24 13:55, Hart Keene wrote: No Hart at the end of the day it’s much, much more than just a coin trick. I recognize you’re a young man and as such lack the life experiences to understand what people are talking about and defending. At the end of the day it’s about honor, truth, right from wrong, credit for a life time of achievement, giving without asking for anything in return and just plan old common courtesy. One day you will understand these things if your lucky, or perhaps you will just be the poorer for never having those experiences and the friendships that come with them. |
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Hart Keene Inner circle Eugene, OR 1486 Posts |
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On 2007-11-24 14:22, RCP wrote: Cmon RCP, you know what I meant. He is using some ridiculous analogies on his previous post and on others. I just meant they are far fetched, not trivializing what we are talking about. Please don't try to talk down to me, OK? |
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RCP Inner circle Two Minnie's in The Hell's Half Acre, The Republic of Texas 2183 Posts |
Not talking down to you. It is obvious that there are two groups of people having trouble understanding each other. Mostly it's a younger vs. an older division that's based on life experiences and friendships. I don't blame you or others who simply don't understand what Steve is feeling about all of this. No offense ment, but it is much more than whether somebody gets another trick. I wish I could express it better so everyone that does not understand could.
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Hart Keene Inner circle Eugene, OR 1486 Posts |
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On 2007-11-24 14:45, RCP wrote: So the guys in question have never had anything stolen from them? Are you not familiar with what Lee Asher sacrificed to battle magic makers? I have had a lot of stuff stolen from me in my life. I don't know what you are trying to get across RCP. I admit that theory 11 made a mistake, and so did they. I have a problem with you and others making them villains, like they intentionally stole from a sick old man. I just won't buy that, not with the evidence that has been provided. Show me some motive? Show me that they needed an old published coin trick to be profitable and survive as a new company? Show me that they had run out of creative ideas that they just HAD to resort to stealing? Prove to me that they are the criminal minds you all make them out to be? None of you can prove that this was not an honest mistake or just the "mis-guidance" of one or two t11 members. Furthermore, Steve D has accused them of not trying to contact him. But he admittedly wont be in contact with them, and has his friends contact them and consult? It doesn't make any sense. Not trying to be rude and this certainly isn't a jab at Steve but he has admitted multiple times that he is on some serious meds, I just want to be sure we are getting all the facts straight. |
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joejonesonline New user 35 Posts |
I'll go out on a limb here and agree that comparing them (Theory11 artists/executives) to a bunch of prisoners is probably over the top.
I think there are two possible explanations for this whole mess. They either did it intentionally or they were really negligent. Neither is good, but one is less morally cupable than the other. It really doesn't make sense for them to have done this intentionally. It is so obvious that a ripoff would be found out! Youngish professionals with any sort of internet background like these guys know that the magic community is just too aggressive, too close-knit, and too educated to let someone market a knock-off effect without this kind of public backlash. Put it this way. I'm no professional and I know that! Even a "Joe Jones" like me can figure out in 10 minutes whether a marketed effect is original or a ripoff or improperly credited. Often times this wonderful community lets it known in the title of a post. And if I - a magic dummy - can figure it out, anyone can figure it out. Don't get me wrong. Negligence isn't excusable and should be harshly condemned. No doubt that they screwed up and should be held accountable. I earlier advocated apology, royalties, and repackaging. (And if Mr. Dusheck wants more, he should get more.) And, definiately, some of this smells really rotten - and most of them were definiately on notice of Mr. Dusheck's effect (see, eg, the Genii forum archive above). And the extremely long investigatory period after this became really public is also fishy. But I just don't buy the idea of malice. Malice just doesn't make sense or dollars and cents. A final thought. I just don't want to buy malice either. That would be heartless and cruel. And that's not the type of magic community I want to really exist. Many prayers are with you Mr. Dusheck. Joe Jones |
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