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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Trick coin trickery » » Digital Dissolve Inquiry » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Hart Keene
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Eugene, OR
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Quote:
On 2007-11-24 15:12, joejonesonline wrote:
It really doesn't make sense for them to have done this intentionally. It is so obvious that a ripoff would be found out! Youngish professionals with any sort of internet background like these guys know that the magic community is just too aggressive, too close-knit, and too educated to let someone market a knock-off effect without this kind of public backlash.


Joe Jones


Please re-read this a few times and remember the guys we are talking about here...

Great post.
-Hart

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djkuttdecks
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Hart... I understand what you are saying, but let us not forget that T11 in itself is actually a rip off of someone else's idea! They knowingly ripped off Ellusionist, Wayne did so and never even told them he was leaving until it launched. What makes you think that T11's core 2 or 3 creators have ANY integrity and wouldn't "knowingly" rip off someone... its how they launched. I don't recall hearing about SD doing something like this in the past, so who do I believe? derrrr SD.
-DJ
Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-11-24 15:36, djkuttdecks wrote:
Hart... I understand what you are saying, but let us not forget that T11 in itself is actually a rip off of someone else's idea! They knowingly ripped off Ellusionist, Wayne did so and never even told them he was leaving until it launched. What makes you think that T11's core 2 or 3 creators have ANY integrity and wouldn't "knowingly" rip off someone... its how they launched. I don't recall hearing about SD doing something like this in the past, so who do I believe? derrrr SD.
-DJ


So you have some facts to back up these accusations? Also, please explain how they ripped off Ellusionist...
-Hart

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W:H
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DJ:

You do not have the full facts regarding myself & E - if you did, you would not be so quick to judge. Are you aware that I had not worked with E for 11 months prior to the launch of T11? I left E's production department during the beginning of October 2006. T11 launched on August 31 of this year - 2007.

WH
Hart Keene
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Eugene, OR
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Quote:
On 2007-11-24 15:36, djkuttdecks wrote:
Hart... I understand what you are saying, but let us not forget that T11 in itself is actually a rip off of someone else's idea! They knowingly ripped off Ellusionist, Wayne did so and never even told them he was leaving until it launched. What makes you think that T11's core 2 or 3 creators have ANY integrity and wouldn't "knowingly" rip off someone... its how they launched. I don't recall hearing about SD doing something like this in the past, so who do I believe? derrrr SD.
-DJ


Would you label your post as hearsay, or gossip? Or are you "in the know"? Please fill everyone in on your credentials and how you have been privelidged with this information...
-Hart

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MickeyPainless
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I honestly know nothing of WH's history of E and T11 but I feel if it is to be discussed it should be in it's own topic since this one spins in way to many directions as it is!
Mick
Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-11-24 16:02, MickeyPainless wrote:
I honestly know nothing of WH's history of E and T11 but I feel if it is to be discussed it should be in it's own topic since this one spins in way to many directions as it is!
Mick


Thank you Mickey, good point...
-Hart

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pepka
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Uh, I'm the one on the right.
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This may not be totally related to the current issue with Steve and T11, but I figured I shold share this. I recently purchased CFWM here on the Café'. I felt so good when I popped on the DVD and Mark Mason's first words are a thank you to Steve for use of the same gimmick. He also includes some history on the gaff as well as a letter from Steve granting him permission.
djkuttdecks
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Quote:
On 2007-11-24 15:47, W:H wrote:
DJ:

You do not have the full facts regarding myself & E - if you did, you would not be so quick to judge. Are you aware that I had not worked with E for 11 months prior to the launch of T11? I left E's production department during the beginning of October 2006. T11 launched on August 31 of this year - 2007.

WH


My apologies... it was based on posts both you and brad made on your own forum at T11, perhaps your forum should up its mods so that your loose lips don't sink ships? Hart... perhaps it is gossip, even if from the horses mouth, I wouldn't know. I was only explaining what I based my assessment of T11 on as a purchasing consumer, I have a full right to do so... that's why they pay marketing and PR right? So stuff like that doesn't leak? Man a PR devision sure would have been handy during this DD fiasco huh? Maybe that's what the profits were going to go towards? Maybe that or a shiny new huffy 12 speed... weeeeeee
-DJ
Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-11-24 18:09, djkuttdecks wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-11-24 15:47, W:H wrote:
DJ:

You do not have the full facts regarding myself & E - if you did, you would not be so quick to judge. Are you aware that I had not worked with E for 11 months prior to the launch of T11? I left E's production department during the beginning of October 2006. T11 launched on August 31 of this year - 2007.

WH


My apologies... it was based on posts both you and brad made on your own forum at T11, perhaps your forum should up its mods so that your loose lips don't sink ships? Hart... perhaps it is gossip, even if from the horses mouth, I wouldn't know. I was only explaining what I based my assessment of T11 on as a purchasing consumer, I have a full right to do so... that's why they pay marketing and PR right? So stuff like that doesn't leak? Man a PR devision sure would have been handy during this DD fiasco huh? Maybe that's what the profits were going to go towards? Maybe that or a shiny new huffy 12 speed... weeeeeee
-DJ


Of course you have a right to do so. Just like you have the right to spread more gossip like you did in the last part of you "apology" post, right? Maybe? lol
-Hart

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djkuttdecks
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Ah that was not a rumor, it was speculation (and a huffy joke)... to the educated few there is a difference.
-DJ
Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-11-24 19:00, djkuttdecks wrote:
Ah that was not a rumor, it was speculation (and a huffy joke)... to the educated few there is a difference.
-DJ


There is a lot of that here on this thread, wouldn't you say? Speculation that is...

I guess I am not one of the educated ones DJ, could you explain the difference between a rumor and a speculation? Or do rumors just start off of speculation? Please explain...
-Hart

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MickeyPainless
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Guys, please take it to PM or start another topic!
Thanks,
Mick
djkuttdecks
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I agree Mick.

Hart I just PM'd you the definitions for rumor and speculation... no need to thank me.

For another question about DD, is it everyones opinion that schoolcraft's actions were ok or did he breach an unethical barrier by producing the actual gimmick. If not, then why?

This is not to insight a riot, I'm honestly asking other peoples opinion on the matter. I know very little about Schoolcraft but I heard his work is top-notch.
-DJ
Chad Barnard
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Schoolcraft had permission to produce the gimmick from Dusheck. What limits, if any, were on that permission will have to be addressed by Steve or Jamie.

I would assume, yeah yeah I know, that Jamie didn't know that Bueno had asked for permission from Steve years ago and was denied. Again Steve or Jamie could answer that better than I.

If Jamie had permission, the limits of that permission weren't breached, again Steve or Jamie can let us know, and he didn't know about the prior history I don't think one could lay blame on him. Does it tarnish his image? Yes. Is his image being unjustly tarnished? Not enough info in yet.
Steve Dusheck
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When I gave Schoolcraft permission to make my gimmick I assumed he would only be selling them retail to his customers. I cannot blame him at all for making thousands of them and selling them wholesale to Theory 11. I'm sure the money came in very handy for him and his family. I would probably do the same thing.
But later seeing how the gimmick was used not giving me credit makes it a matter of ethics. I personally think he should have stopped supplying the coins once he learned they were being used as a rip off of the trick I gave him permission to make. I will not comment on his ethics.
It's too difficult to judge a person without knowing all the facts. Perhaps he has major financial problems and really needs the money. That changes everything doesn't it?
When I offered him additional help on making the gimmick he never replied and he never sent me the sample of his coin that he promised. He never sent an e-mail to explain his position on the Theory 11 trick. His silence is quite loud.
I would feel bad if he really knew what was going on from the start but I don't think he did. As I said before, someday I'm sure we will be friends again. I made 100 unique gimmicked coin tricks. I'm sure some machinist will want to make some.
Steve
Steve Dusheck
MickeyPainless
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I called Schoolcraft asking them to make the gaff for me and was told no by Mike. I then informed him I had written permission from Steve and his tone changed and said he'd ask Jamie. I got a call back from Mike later that day saying that Jamie would call me personally later that day or the next...... That was in Sept. and I never did here from him!
Mick
Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-11-24 20:28, djkuttdecks wrote:
I agree Mick.

Hart I just PM'd you the definitions for rumor and speculation... no need to thank me.

-DJ


It wasnt the definitions of the words I was concerned about. Both create lies...
-Hart

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Joshua Barrett
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Quote:
On 2007-11-25 03:20, MickeyPainless wrote:
I called Schoolcraft asking them to make the gaff for me and was told no by Mike. I then informed him I had written permission from Steve and his tone changed and said he'd ask Jamie. I got a call back from Mike later that day saying that Jamie would call me personally later that day or the next...... That was in Sept. and I never did here from him!
Mick


more likly that was jamie just plain forgetting .... that tends to happen with him, hes way over booked
Steve Dusheck
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That reminds me of a guy who stated he heard Dusheck was difficult to do business with and heard it from several sources. The topic being discussed was my refusal to give Bueno the rights to make my gimmick to go with his variation of my trick. The comment that Dusheck was difficult to do business with had nothing to do with business or the topic being discussed, and was only meant to deceive my supporters.
I received an e-mail from a magician stating he bought DD and since "I claimed" to have invented the gimmick and since he only lived a few hours away he wanted to come to visit me and see me perform my routine. He was also bringing a few of his magician friends. He never once mentioned paying me for my time as was also falsely stated. I found the e-mail offensive.
I explained that I am always very busy inventing new tricks, making tricks or filling magic orders. If he wanted personal intstructions it would cost him $350.00 or he could buy my DVD for $10.00. He found that offensive and published my personal reply on the Café.
I was charging what I normally charge for a private party and much less than I charge for my magic lecture. I would have to stop making magic and filling orders so someone had to pay for my time.
Other magicians also found this magician's comment stating "since I claim" to be offending and also thought the price I quoted was very fair.
It was after I received support for my response on the Café did that magician say he would have probably spent a lot of money with me. It would not be as much as the orders I already needed to make.
So several people did not say I was difficult to do business with. One person stated he heard I was and said he heard it from several sources.
By the way, talks are going very well between Marc and Jonathan. It is very good business to have an unbiased third person negotiate a business deal. Most people in business know that.
Steve
Steve Dusheck
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