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Jonathan Townsend
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Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
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Folks,

IMHO the devil has enough advocates as is.

Maybe we can leave the role playing to those who know how to read a script and take direction?

J
...to all the coins I've dropped here
atigu
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[quote]On 2007-10-23 12:53, Hart Keene wrote:
Quote:


Asher, Kenner, Fisher, Houchin, Etc. Those names aren't special(ist) enough for you?



Well let me put it this way, I always thought they where (atleast Asher and Fisher), but from what I can tell atm it seems like I may have been mistaken (a month and who knows how much time before release they spent on researching and it's done nothing for them).
Ofcourse they might actually be experts and simply just thieves..

I'm still hoping atleast 2 of my "heroes" (you should be able to guess who) somehow ends up actually having no blame in this at all in some strange way (I'm thinking they're only "artists" and I'll keep it like that in my head for a while longer atleast).

And yes you are right in that T11 actually does something, and something of that something is wrongdoings..

Btw. it's still for sale which I still think is wrong no matter what names you throw at my face Smile
Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-10-23 13:00, podcastrant wrote:
Hart,

You take on this is mind-boggling.


Oh is it? I didn't know that I had "a take". Do you know exactly what is/has gone on? I am simply saying that we should wait for things to pan out before starting a witch hunt. A lot of good reputations can get tainted by rumors that circulate here on the Café. That is all I'm saying...

Once again these are artists that have a perfect track record and some have even done more than all of you put together to stop theft. Just take it easy...
-Hart

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Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-10-23 15:09, podcastrant wrote:
Uh....yes we do. It's documented. The co-chair of ethics for the SAM came on here and said that we were right. What legs does your "devil's advocate" table have to stand on?


Well then kill them all!!!!!! Asher, Fisher, BJ, Houchin, all of em! Let me grab my hood and cloak. Did you guys remember rope? Less messy...what about torches? Do you think it will be dark?

These guys were never going to release any more original magic anyway! They would have just continued to lie, steel, and cheat! Kill em all! Oh yeah, there is documentation that Copperfield raped some girl! We don't need to wait for that to pan out! Lets be rid of him while were at it! He must be connected to theory 11 as well because of his connection with Kenner!;)
-Hart

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MickeyPainless
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***I've heard through the grapevine, Steve D. can be difficult to deal with....***
Hart,
I'm not even going to get into the facts and figures and who is or isn't etc.
However I will address your statement by saying that my experience with Mr Steve Dusheck has always been wonderful! Not only is he one of the most innovative minds in magic but also one of the most generous, even after being ripped off as much as he has! Where as Steve has been extremely kind and giving to me (and many others) I doubt I could be as gracious if I were in his shoes!
As for waiting for things to pan out......... I will ask once again, does it take this long for T11 to gather the facts they should have gathered BEFORE releasing DD or is it taking this long to get certain ducks in a row for CYA purposes?
Just my opinion!
Mick
Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-10-23 20:09, MickeyPainless wrote:
***I've heard through the grapevine, Steve D. can be difficult to deal with....***
Hart,
I'm not even going to get into the facts and figures and who is or isn't etc.
However I will address your statement by saying that my experience with Mr Steve Dusheck has always been wonderful! Not only is he one of the most innovative minds in magic but also one of the most generous, even after being ripped off as much as he has! Where as Steve has been extremely kind and giving to me (and many others) I doubt I could be as gracious if I were in his shoes!
As for waiting for things to pan out......... I will ask once again, does it take this long for T11 to gather the facts they should have gathered BEFORE releasing DD or is it taking this long to get certain ducks in a row for CYA purposes?
Just my opinion!
Mick


Just want to say that I have never met Steve D. in person. I was simply stating hearsay(from another thread and a few anonymous folks). But isn't that what all of you are doing regarding this theory 11 fiasco?
-Hart

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Hart Keene
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Just want to say that I am not taking sides though it might appear so. Just didn't want rumors to taint good people. Since I have "appeared" to be on one side of the fence I will now step over to other side by saying that I do find it funny that it is still for sale. If I was in charge I might pull it for the time being...but I'm not in charge...
-Hart

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MickeyPainless
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***But isn't that what all of you are doing regarding this theory 11 fiasco?***

What, going on hearsay? No, I can't speak for anyone else but I have based my opinions on stated and written facts.
Mick
Chad Barnard
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Hart,

I'm sorry you missed the 12to14 page thread that originally discussed this. It is in cleaning now by Café staff and hopefully will be put back up soon. Please excuse those of us that find your arguments ridiculous since they have already been disproved by Steve Duschek and Marc Desouza (among countless others).

Your asinine comment regarding my comment that the co-chair of ethics for the SAM came on here and said it was a rip-off, I guess was your attempt at sarcasm. It fell short.

Kenner doesn't really have that great a reputation (on this board at least) for ethics. Since he took an idea of Jonathan Townsend's added a few things (including an unpublished Latta move for the last vanish that he didn't ask permission to publish) and released it without permission.

In his original ThreeFly pamphlet he states that it had been a pet routine of his since 1986. I find this funny since all documentation from Jonathan says that he showed it to Kenner in 1987. How could it have been a pet routine of his a year before Jonathan showed it to him?

If you watch Kenner's history of ThreeFly on COINvention you'll see that he said it was some time after Jonathan showed it to him that he perfected his routine. So this would put his dating in the instructions off even more

We've done our research, now you do yours.
jimbowmanjr
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Quote:
On 2007-10-23 20:29, Hart Keene wrote:

Just want to say that I have never met Steve D. in person. I was simply stating hearsay(from another thread and a few anonymous folks). But isn't that what all of you are doing regarding this theory 11 fiasco?


But you don't want any good reputations tainted here right? I am disappointed that Lee hasn't come forward which is who I have heard gone to great lengths to fight this type of thing from happening period. I am sure there are at least two guys involved with that place that are biting their tongues and unplugging their keyboards to avoid responding to this issue publicly. I hope something is done about this soon and I thought the product would have at least been pulled by now. Even JB said they bagged an entire run of Guardian decks because they weren't the way they wanted them, which I would wager is worth quite a bit more than whatever stock they have sitting on the shelves for this release.

At any rate we can only state out disappointment so many times until it becomes repetitive and ends up falling on deaf ears. I will let my wallet do the talking from now on.

--Jim
Jonathan Townsend
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Let us suppose that all the parties involved now know what's up.

It's difficult enough to apologize in the best of times and circumstances.

On one of the deleted threads you can read how even SteveD can come across as less than gracious when feeling cornered and stressed and then confronted with an awkwardly phrased note from somebody (SteveF).

Let's not ask others to make a bad situation smell like roses.

Okay?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-10-23 21:28, podcastrant wrote:
Hart,

I'm sorry you missed the 12to14 page thread that originally discussed this. It is in cleaning now by Café staff and hopefully will be put back up soon. Please excuse those of us that find your arguments ridiculous since they have already been disproved by Steve Duschek and Marc Desouza (among countless others).

Your asinine comment regarding my comment that the co-chair of ethics for the SAM came on here and said it was a rip-off, I guess was your attempt at sarcasm. It fell short.

Kenner doesn't really have that great a reputation (on this board at least) for ethics. Since he took an idea of Jonathan Townsend's added a few things (including an unpublished Latta move for the last vanish that he didn't ask permission to publish) and released it without permission.

In his original ThreeFly pamphlet he states that it had been a pet routine of his since 1986. I find this funny since all documentation from Jonathan says that he showed it to Kenner in 1987. How could it have been a pet routine of his a year before Jonathan showed it to him?

If you watch Kenner's history of ThreeFly on COINvention you'll see that he said it was some time after Jonathan showed it to him that he perfected his routine. So this would put his dating in the instructions off even more

We've done our research, now you do yours.


You have obviously made up your mind about theory 11 and its artists. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. You can now refrain from buying or affiliating yourself with anything that is or has to do with theory 11.

As for myself...What theory 11 does in the next few weeks will show us what kind of company they really are, and it will speak louder than anyone here...
-Hart

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Chad Barnard
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I didn't give you opinion. Dispute anything I've said above with facts.
I gave you references so you can check for yourself.

Your assumptions that I have made up mind about T11 and it's artists is wrong as well. I haven't commented about T11 or their artists as a whole. I've only talked about BJ specifically and mentioned that Kenner's reputation is not perfect either.

I gave you facts that you can check for yourself. You are the one spouting opinion.
Hart Keene
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Quote:
On 2007-10-24 13:15, podcastrant wrote:
I didn't give you opinion. Dispute anything I've said above with facts.
I gave you references so you can check for yourself.

Your assumptions that I have made up mind about T11 and it's artists is wrong as well. I haven't commented about T11 or their artists as a whole. I've only talked about BJ specifically and mentioned that Kenner's reputation is not perfect either.

I gave you facts that you can check for yourself. You are the one spouting opinion.


I just didn't want this to turn into a witch hunt. If someone did make a mistake then I think they should be able to attempt to fix it. Also, we don't know the extent to which parties-or members of parties were involved. If theory 11 were doing nothing to TRY and resolve the situation then I could see boycotting them or whatever. But if they tell us that they are trying to resolve it then we should give them the benefit of the doubt, for now. They haven't given me a reason not to believe them.
-Hart

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Chad Barnard
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Quote:
On 2007-10-20 13:43, podcastrant wrote:
Sounds promising....I'll wait to see what they decide. In this instance though, silence isn't golden.


If you look earlier in the thread, you'll see that I feel the same way. I'm waiting to see what they say, but I won't wait forever.

It looks like on this aspect, we agree.
Joshua Barrett
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Lets cool down gang, I for one am going to wait and hope that the t11 folks do the right thing. what that is exactly is up to the real creators.
Chad Barnard
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I agree...The one thing I hate about discussing things on forum boards is the lack of ability to know the tone that someone is trying to express.

My comments usually come off as heated, but trust me they're not. I just have a pointed way of expressing myself. Hopefully, I'll get to meet some of you guys and you'll see what I mean.

My family and I have many "spirited" debates. After my wife first had a dinner with my family, she asked me if we fought like that all of the time. I said, "Fighting?! Girl we were just having a discussion." It used to make her uneasy, but she's used to it now. I have to remind myself that not everyone goes at it with their friends and family like we do.
Jonathan Townsend
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Re:
Quote:
But if they tell us that they are trying to resolve it then we should give them the benefit of the doubt, for now. They haven't given me a reason not to believe them.


They gave me sufficient cause to wonder about the bunch of them at the start of September.

It's almost the start of November and I'm still wondering.

But I also wonder if leopards can change their spots.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Hart Keene
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Quote:
wonder about the bunch of them



Once again I don't know if grouping "them" together is the best thing. Should I not like the Atlanta Falcons because Michael Vick was into dogfighting? Do we really know the extent of "fault" with each member of theory 11? If you guys are into the whole "guilty by association" thing so be it...
-Hart

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Jonathan Townsend
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Okay, let's not lump the theory11 gang with the folks who do dog fighting.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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