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Jonathan Townsend
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If you look under the order of science you can find magic.

And if you study magic you will find yourself doing science.

But if all you desire are excuses that others might accept... keep up the good work.

Just a beginner here. And I hope that stay that way.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
MagicSanta
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Josh Riel...I believe in you.

If you read the introduction of The Magic of Michael Ammar David "The Love Machine" Copperfield mentions that when one learns magic they lose the ability to find wonder in it. That is true. What one does find, if they look for it, is the science of magic as Mr. Townsend mentions, you'll find the art of entertaining, and a facinating history. You discover a different type of joy, rather than being the spectator you get to be the hero to some lil' boy or girl for an hour. I think the trade off worked out well.
Traveler
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Quote:
OnBut if all you desire are excuses that others might accept... keep up the good work.

Just a beginner here. And I hope that stay that way.


and if all you desire is to show off how great you are by replying in a patronising way, I'd say get a life and get off my back. I asked for opinions, not for hostility without a cause. Knock yourself out, but don't expect me to reply to you anymore.

As for the others, thanks for the opinions, they are appreciated.
ed rhodes
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Quote:
On 2007-09-29 12:38, Traveler wrote:
Hmmm... interesting, all very scientifically minded people over here. Nobody who has the "yes, virginia" attitude ?
Only gsidhe misses the wonder sometimes, like I do ? In the case of freak prodigy it obviously has to do with how he was raised. How about the rest ? Has it anything to do with being a magician or were you all born under sceptical starsigns...er... Smile


I have wonder in the methods at times. When I see what to me is an obvious switch and I know no one else caught it, it feels great.

Other than that, I feel wonder in the performance. Copperfield, Burton, P&T, these people sell what it is we're watching and I enjoy watching them.

There is a lot of cynicism in the magic world. Watching some of Cyril's performances on YouTube, a lot of the comments were of the "oh that's so obvious" mode, as if these people were capable of so much better. (Maybe they are, but they're not uploading them onto YouTube or anywhere else that I can see.)
"All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast!" - Oscar Wilde
Traveler
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Valid point, mandrake.
I also can take delight in not knowing the methods. Derren Brown fools me badly, that's the main reason I'm so intrigued by his show.

Rossmacrae, I like the anecdote. My father did the same thing when he was young. After seeing "Mary Poppins" he jumped out of a tree with an umbrella. Same result as you had.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2007-09-28 15:04, Traveler wrote:
We all know about magic, the methods, the presentations... and we LOVE it,...


I challenge the basic premise as offered up top. And draw attention to what I feel is a presupposition of an unhealthy fascination and distraction from magic.

Magic is NOT about the trickery. That trickery is so base as to be known as "con games" and much worse when used out of context.

Instead I suggest magic is a way of looking at things. And how we get others to look at things in "that way" happens to be showing them tricks under special and theatrical conditions.

Now I do agree that many in our craft seem to lose focus on the audience and what the audience enjoys - instead setting their sights upon the mechanics. But that is IMHO truly misguided ... almost literally losing sight of the forest to puzzle over a leaf.

Traveller, we can discuss YOUR issue about what you perceive as patronizing offline if you want. Just don't expect me to deny too much reality or ignore too much of what I've spent years exploring.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
ed rhodes
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Quote:
On 2007-09-30 08:09, Traveler wrote:
Valid point, mandrake.
I also can take delight in not knowing the methods. Derren Brown fools me badly, that's the main reason I'm so intrigued by his show.

Rossmacrae, I like the anecdote. My father did the same thing when he was young. After seeing "Mary Poppins" he jumped out of a tree with an umbrella. Same result as you had.


Am I the only person in the world who, as a kid, did _not_ think an umbrella or a cape would make me fly? I played "Superman," I jumped off the porch. I didn't think I was going to really fly!
"All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast!" - Oscar Wilde
Jonathan Townsend
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I treated the wind changing direction and Mary Poppins blowing into and out of their lives as "story language" and did not think about how big an umbrella she might need to do that ... or the mechanics used in the movie as there was not such a great "tell" as to distract me from the story element.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
rossmacrae
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On 2007-09-30 09:34, mandrake01 wrote:
Am I the only person in the world who, as a kid, did _not_ think an umbrella or a cape would make me fly?

This issue was a "life lesson" for me - NOT the bad scrape I got from it, but how it was possible for a rational person to think "naaaah, it won't work ... but maybe there's something I just don't know and it will ... but this is so incredibly stupid ... but what the heck, here goes!"
Mark Rough
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Yeah, but you only had a scrape. I, on the other hand, had a full leg cast. Cool, huh?!?

It was only the first in a whole bunch of stupid experiments that ended with my first marriage. It takes some of us longer to grow up, I guess.

Raven
What would Wavy do?
Josh the Superfluous
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Quote:
On 2007-09-30 09:34, mandrake01 wrote:

Am I the only person in the world who, as a kid, did _not_ think an umbrella or a cape would make me fly? I played "Superman," I jumped off the porch. I didn't think I was going to really fly!


Of course we never hear about the times it works. Every year, hundreds of children are carried off to the heavens on the handles of umbrellas. Only to explode in outer space.


Energizer,
I told her that I did use tricks to accomplish the things I do, but it was the words and motions that created the magic. And that although I couldn't really turn one coin into another, the feeling she got when they changed, created real magic for her in her mind. The next day she told my mother "I think I'd like to learn magic someday. Maybe I could take a class." My mom had a good laugh over that.
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Energizer
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An excellent response Josh!

Olly
"We judge a book by its cover and read what we want between selected lines" - W. Axl Rose, circa 1992.
Josh Riel
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I never expected Jonathan to be the guy to respond with the cerebral version of "Magic is in the smile of a baby".

Josh #2 I hope you might be able get some magic lessons for your daughter. Have you written to Santa Clause? He can do some crazy ****. He can squeeze through a 10" hole, and he's pretty fat.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
Josh the Superfluous
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Josh #2,

I would, but Santa doesn't like Jews*.





*Kanye West told me.
What do you want in a site? "Honesty, integrity and decency." -Mike Doogan
"I hate it, I hate my ironic lovechild. I didn't even have anything to do with it" Josh #2
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2007-09-30 19:08, Josh Riel wrote:
I never expected Jonathan to be the guy to respond with the cerebral version of "Magic is in the smile of a baby"....


um... where?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Josh Riel
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On 2007-09-29 14:52, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Puzzled by the question.

Obviously there's lots of magic around.
Have you ever stopped to notice that when you let go of something it moves all by itself toward the floor... no strings, threads or even magnets involved.



Instead of babies, we have gravity, but the concept is the same. And yes, it is the same argument.

I had a sixth sense that someone was going to try to bring this discussion into a forced scholarly discussion. While, Jonathan, you always do try to make it uncomfortably intellectual, I didn't think it would have been you this time.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
Josh Riel
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Josh #2: No, Santa would like Jews, but he doesn't believe they exist. And if they did he would be really scared they would kill him.

I really do apologize for that Josh #2.

Kanye West is a very handsome and talented antisemitic. He didn't kill Jesus.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
Jonathan Townsend
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In overview I hold that HOW we perceive a thing greatly influences what we think about it. If we look at cause-effect alone we are left to physics. If we look to intentions and results we get magic.

The baby's smile itself is not the feeling WE have when WE look at it. And we now have the notion of "mirror neurons" to help us understand what's going on inside us.

Getting back to what happens when we let go of a thing...we call the phenomenon "gravity" and even have some equations that describe the motion of objects but that in no way explains it. It remains a mystery so deep that Einstein knew the had LOTS of work to do before even getting close to a satisfactory model ... and even after trying to simplify the problem down to just charge+mass he did not get so far on the explanation side - we still have what Newton called action at a distance and no intermediary to carry that action.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Josh the Superfluous
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Along those lines Jonathan:

I understand how a magnet vibrates a speaker cone, to cause vibrations that my ears perceive as sound. And how the shape of a moving wing causes pressure zones that induce lift. But the fact that a wiggling piece of paper can sound like a bell or a symphony orchestra, and a huge metal bus full of people can soar through the air, both seem magical to me.

Josh #2, it was nice knowing you.
What do you want in a site? "Honesty, integrity and decency." -Mike Doogan
"I hate it, I hate my ironic lovechild. I didn't even have anything to do with it" Josh #2
Jonathan Townsend
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Would you go for "mysterious" or "spooky" instead of "magical" as your word there?

The reason I'm asking is that I suspect what we call "magic" also involves a component of will as one of the causal aspects.

For example, would your reaction to the speaker be different if the speaker only worked for a few minutes after you fed the dog and only while the dog was in the room? Or only for a few minutes after you cleared your mind and imagined a sea turtle swimming in the ocean ... and when you lost your mental image of that turtle the sound stopped.

how's that?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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