On 2007-10-06 13:52, princehal wrote:
>skepticism believes that true knowledge and certainty don't exist

I think that is the opposite of what skeptics believe.

On 2007-10-06 10:52, lumberjohn wrote:

Quote:

On 2007-10-06 02:36, photius wrote:
It is all about Randi. He never intends to part with that cash, and will always find some sort of criteria to disqualify an applicant. . . . He is going to create conditions under which it cannot be done.

Photius,

You weren't saying that it is merely possible for the JREF to create impossible conditions. You were saying that they actually do it when the million dollars is threatened. I have yet to see any support for that claim.

You've also made some new points I would like to address. Your problems with the challenge appear to stem from several things. In fact, while you say you aren't saying the challenge is unfair, you go on to describe why you think it is unfair and "a waste of time."

First, you do not believe it is valid because while effects can be measured, the underlying causative mechanisms may not be subject to such measurement. It is interesting that you mention the scientific method, because that very method is used to make these determinations all the time. We can control for known causative variables and statistically determine whether an unknown variable is at play. If an applicant can demonstrate that such a variable is at play, they will win the million dollars. They need not show its exact mechanism. In short, they must only demonstrate a statistically significant result that cannot be explained by any known cause. Your argument that actual psychic forces must be observed before the challenge can be won is simply a strawman. Our current methodology is quite sufficient to detect paranormal forces by simply controlling for known forces.

Another strawman you present is the suggestion that the challenge rules will not allow applicants "wave their hands, point their hands and arms, make fists, grimace, etc." Where do you get this information? The rules set no such restrictions. As long as it is clear the applicant is not using any sort of gimmicks such as magnets or thread, I can't imagine any such restrictions being imposed.

You say you "do not believe there is anything that Alexandre can do to convince JERF or Randi that the pen falling off the glass is being done by any supernatural ability or force." I disagree. If Alexandre were in fact serious (he is not), he could agree to protocols that control for known forces and cause the pen to fall in such a way that would be statistically improbable to a material degree by any known causative force. That would do it. Show me a situation where this occurred and the million dollars was withheld.

Finally, I want to address what you call the real "point of your post," "the idea that you can't prove anything to a skeptic, since philosophically skepticism believes that true knowledge and certainty don't exist. As such nothing can be proven." Modern skepticism (as opposed to classical philosophical skepticism, which we could discuss further, but it is not relevant to this discussion) does not promote any such belief. You go on to state that I am confusing skepticism with the scientific method, which, you claims, are "two unrelated things."

In fact, they are not unrelated at all. Modern skepticism is intimately related with the scientific method. In fact, I've heard it described by critics as the philosophy that exalts the scientific method above all else. While I wouldn't agree with this statement as written, it is not far off.

Specifically, when you discuss the JREF, this is exactly the kind of "skepticism" it employs. In that context, you can use the term "skeptic" synonymously with anyone requiring evidence and application of the scientific method to truth claims. Do a quick search on "skeptic" organizations, or listen to "skeptic" podcasts and you will find this to be true. You may want to update your definition to the twenty-first century.

So basically, what the JREF does is to apply the scientific method to paranormal claims. If the claims survive the controlled testing, the applicant walks away with the million dollars. If you have evidence that the JREF is doing something other than this, I'd sure love to see it.

I suspect that he's not very interested in every performer who wishes to use the challenge as a publicity stunt.

On 2007-10-06 18:39, ALEXANDRE wrote:
Randi is actually in Fort Lauderdale and I have visited him in the past as mentioned above, but gas prices the way they are right now (not to speak of my busy schedule) I rather send in a tape.

It's all there, no arguing my abilities, besides, on tape he can watch it hundreds of times (I heard he's watched it a few already) whereas live he would only see it once maybe twice. I'm short on patience when it comes to tests.

I enjoy reading your opinion, but understand I am not attacking JERF, Randi, or even Alexandre.. . . I attacked no one. Nuff said.

I'm sure if someone on this board calls one of you a fraud and a cheat and states that you are out to further your own career by deceiving others, you will take it in the light-hearted manner you suggest.