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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27469 Posts 
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Check this out:
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TRICKS - Most people agree that it is best to buy the "original" version of a trick or illusion rather than a cheap copy of it. Obviously, if the new version is a significant improvement on the original, and credits the original, then it is essentially a "new" trick, but we're talking about direct copies here. So if someone sees one of your tricks and can offer it cheaper and using a more reliable method that would be good for magic and okay because their offering is a "new" trick and it would be fine with you if they said it was 'inspired by' something they saw you do. Simply execrable in my opinion. Sorry Tim I am not going to support that position, that behavior or the presupposition that my peers would condone that behavior either. Though if you feel it would okay for your offerings to be undercut by those who might do a better (economically-marketing) job in the market... I can respect that as your position. For contrast, here is my position on the matter; *** overview *** Need to know with responsibility for the knowledge imparted so it can later be transmitted intact *** end overview *** To begin, refined procedures for deploying guile may not be the most suitable amusements for those who have not accepted responsibility for their actions in life. Procedures which affect the beliefs of others carry a similarly greater weight as to their consequences. Most people have no business knowing a trick exists. Unless they are a magician it is unseemly and exposure to have such knowledge in print or easy public access. Most muggles are lucky if they get to see a work performed and it really SHOULD be good luck in that they get to see it performed well and get to enjoy the experience. Students need only be told of its existence if they are trustworthy and inquiring about works to build upon for their own artistic purposes. When they do get to know about it - copies are not "better" or worse for being cheap, they are COPIES and stand as a sign of untrustworthiness for all who offer, sell, buy and use. Improvements can usually be incorporated into the original by its inventor by agreement or if the work is delegated, by the newly authorized vendor of the work. This path offers wonderful feedback for the inventor and many more opportunities for win/win transactions and positive social networking in our field IMHO. Communicating the provenance of the work is the responsibility of the one offering the work. Giving access to the work is signifying a trust in the receiver. To lose the thread of evolution of a work puts the student in a position where they cannot evaluate their own efforts or connect their work to that of others who may have solved their problems generations ago. Credits cannot be offered without permissions. The walls don't ask for graffiti.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts
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I agree with you, Jon.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22791 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-10-10 11:14, JackScratch wrote: Perhaps you would be better suited to telling us what Drew is saying as you seem to have your hands full with that task alone. Telling me what I am saying is pretty well beyond your abilities so let me clarify. "Magic" is no longer the community it used to be once in a time gone by. The internet has exploded and the mentor system which Whit speaks of has gone the way of the Dinosaur. There is not quite as clear cut a view of "Magic Ethics" any more. The concept is laughable now. 14 year olds putting out tricks from Tarbell and putting their name on them are accepted because we want to "encourage the next generation". The lines have been completly obliterated. The second we SELL SECRETS and make magic a business, 'ethics' really tend to varry from person to person. (Which they do anyhow). I do what I do Drew your right. Actually far more ethical than you want to make it seem. BUT I also know that I am not going to push that on anyone but me and I CERTAINLY am not going to judge anything anyone does as right or wrong but me. That seems to be a job that has been taken.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts
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If I am ignorant of anything. it is of the path that leads you to your beliefs. If I am ignorant of that, it is because you have failed to impart that information in a clear manner. You don't have to understand my beliefs. After all, they are mine not yours. Quote:
I'm not exceptionally concerned about this particular ignorance as you have made it quite clear you are more interested in telling people they are incorrect, than actually presenting useful constructive information. Drew, how much clearer than "ethics" are subjective do I have to be? I don't tell people what to do and have even offered solutions to help the problem. It seems to fall on deaf ears or the solution is not viable. here it is again. "IF YOU STOP WRITING BOOKS OR MAKING VIDEOS YOU CAN CURB MUCH OF THE EXPOSURE" Quote:
Lying is both unethical and a sin. Drew, "sin", really? that is so god d a m n weak I can't believe you put it down. And since I don't believe in a supreme being, about the only thing that is going to happen to me is I become worm food. Quote:
Before you say "magicians do nothing but lie", there is a big difference between telling a client you can't perform because you threw your back out, so you can take another contract and not telling an audience how you moved that card from the center of the deck to the top, and if you don't know that difference, seek counseling. Are you kidding me? you used up bandwidth for another ridiculous comment. talk about straw man. Oye Vey! |
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mtpascoe Inner circle 1932 Posts
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Whoa. . . all of this is getting out of hand. We are never going to come to an agreement this way. No one is going to go over on the other side. All there will be left is back and forth bickering.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22791 Posts
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I was not bickering, only mentioning that nobody can claim what I mean except for myself. To claim to do so is quite arrogant would you not agree?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27469 Posts
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You are welcome to explore all the sides and perspectives you can.
Though IMHO you are likely to find the most ready access to the best goodies on the "trust-honor" side.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts
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On 2007-10-11 12:24, Jonathan Townsend wrote: That is where all of my most knowledgeable and creative friends live. We don't share certain things with outsiders. There is plenty of stuff available for everyone else. They have no need to know our pet secrets and tricks that we don't perform when magicians are around. If anyone really wants to have access to these concepts, they must show themselves to be worthy and honorable over time. Magic is changing. The old mentor system is not what it was. However, those who have a mentor will advance much faster and have a much deeper understanding of magic. Most of the glut of magical enthusiasm in the last few years comes from kids entranced with television personalities, and will fade eventually. The fact is, there is so much magic in print, for sale, or available on the internet, that the good stuff is almost impossible to find. There is a pony in that crap somewhere, but you may need a guide if you ever hope to find it. The experienced and knowledgeable are likely to withhold their information from all but the chosen few, once the sale of magic secrets loses its financial appeal. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22791 Posts
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Whit, a mentor as a guide dog is EXACTLY on the mark in todays world. Mentors have always been necessary in my view, but even more so when so much crap must be waded through.
But it is tough to tell that to those who have never had one.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27469 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-10-11 14:26, Dannydoyle wrote: a disturbing choice of words.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts
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JT very funny!
Whit, thank you! that's exactly what I have been saying, and the only way one can hope to help curb all of the exposure. Of course, folks such as JT, Danny, yourself and others already know that. |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-10-10 18:58, Whit Haydn wrote: I just wanted to jump in here and give my opinion on the above post. And my opinion is that it is one of the best things that has been written on the tricky subject of Ethics in magic. It clearly says some very important things. In my opinion magic is not the kind of art that it is a good idea to openly share secrets with people that just want to know because they have a moment of curiosity after watching a magician. Back in the old days magic secrets were only learned from older and more experienced magicians. And from books. Magic books were in public libraries but in my opinion the person learning only from books had to have a lot of drive to learn much. Today we seem to have a respect problem in magic. There seems to be little respect for magic secrets. There seems to be little respect for magicians that come up with magic secrets. But in my opinion not publishing magic secrets is not the solution. By the way - great post Whit! Just an opinion. Posted: Oct 11, 2007 6:03pm Quote: On 2007-10-11 12:12, C. Loubard wrote: "IF YOU STOP WRITING BOOKS OR MAKING VIDEOS YOU CAN CURB MUCH OF THE EXPOSURE" Even though I partly agree with this I do not think that it is the answer to the problem in magic. Part of the problem of magic and part of what I think Tim is talking about is that magicians being performers come up with an idea and then others in magic see it - like it and then rip it off. In my fathers case he did a routine that he invented. He never published it. He did it at almost every show for his whole lifetime. On Television and in some of the best night clubs in the USA. The routine I am talking about is his rope tie comedy escape. Well magicians saw it, liked it, many magicians worked it out and added it to their shows. And a few dealers published it and sold it giving my dad no credit at all for coming up with the routine. My dad won the sweepstakes trophy for showmanship and general excellence at the PCAM convention. Also the last Houdini award - awarded by Mrs. Bess Houdini who died shortly afterward. Even with all this - because my Dad never published his routine - it got around and my Dad did not get the credit. Tony Marks invented the box table and that got around. In the Tony Marks book by Bev Bergeron. The box table idea suddenly appeared in the show of a lot of working magicians and it wasn't really credited to Tony Marks until Bev Bergeron wrote the book about him. In it Tony is said to have not been upset at his box table idea got around and was glad that he came up with something magicians found useful. I published a lot of my stuff (like my shell game) because I perform and my ideas "get around" because I am out there performing for people. When you perform for people the ideas get around and it seems that this - your magic ideas - getting around is part of the price we pay just to be performers and being in the performing business. If I did not publish - that would not stop the idea from getting around - it might slow it down a little but it might not - if I did not publish it perhaps someone else most likely would publish it without asking me - like in the case of my Dads rope tie and then I would not get the credit for the idea and others would profit more off my ideas. Just my opinion.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts
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Bish,
1)you will never prevent anyone from reverse engineering anything. 2)you will never stop anyone from revealing secrets. 3)you will never convince everyone to share in your beliefs what can you do? 1) stop making videos and writing books 2) never sell stuff to non-magicians 3) be selective of who you share secrets with. will it fix the problem? NO! but it will help tremendously and that's all one can do. If this is not good enough for all you guys, take up gardening where exposure is not an issue. |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts
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C.: I agree with you on everything you said, but I think that is not a contradiction of what Bish is saying.
Bish was agreeing with me, and as he said, "When you perform for people the ideas get around and it seems that this - your magic ideas - getting around is part of the price we pay just to be performers and being in the performing business." Bish naturally groused about exposure and theft of his and his father's stuff, but he did not disagree except to say that "not publishing" would not solve the problem. |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-10-11 19:43, C. Loubard wrote: I agree with most of what you have said C. Loubard but - If I do not publish my ideas others will. The reason is because I am out there in front of the public and they will "see" my ideas and work them out as I already explained. As for my published stuff I don't sell my stuff to magic shops. The only way anyone can get it is from me - or a bootleg illegal copy from someone else. The only reason I do publish is because I know that if I don’t others that see me work in magic will and then I wouldn’t get the credit. Because I am an entertainer I put video on the web. This included video of my Shell routine. There is no way to stop a magician going to my site and then learning my routine from the video. Just is there is no way to stop a magician in my Dads day from video taping my dads act and then working out his rope tie from a performance he did on TV. My Dad performed on TV because it was good business to do so. That is the same reason I have video of my shell routine at my web site. Magicians "will" copy even when it is not published. Magicians and manufactures in magic "will" publish good ideas that others came up with even when they did not come up with the idea. As a magician this kind of exposure is called advertising and if we perform magic for a living it is something that is part of the business. I am not complaining about it. I only know that it happens and it will continue to happen. Just my opinion.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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BlackShadow Special user London UK 665 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-10-09 13:19, C. Loubard wrote: Generally when we (as in Magic Café, not necessarily you and me) talk about ethics, we mean the business ethics or the professional ethics of magic. That's especially true about this forum. See Steve Brook's forum guideline note for that. It's not really a moral standpoint, more of a commercial one, and as such there's more of an agreement from those in the business than there might be on other broader ethical issues. There are still shades of opinion of course, I'll grant you that, but it's less of a range than from a purely moral standpoint. |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts
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Bish I apologize, my response did seem a little heavy handed. Whit thanks for pointing that out.
It seems, you guys are more concerened with credit, at this point. A valid concern. here's the answer! A central location where someone, for five dollars, can register their work. That work is dated and given a unique serial number. This is exactly what is done with movie scripts, treatments and what not, albeit at a higher price. Whit, living in Hollywood, I am sure you're familiar with the writers guild. Now when there is some sort of challenge as to the originality of the work, one can defer to the magic center for clarification. there you go, quite the simple solution. Posted: Oct 11, 2007 9:23pm Blackshadow, but that is the problem. With all of the secrets readily available to anyone, professional standards don't apply. There is no secret handshake or initiation. Any non-magician can get a video or book and do what they want with it. Magic should be like the military where selection is grueling and only a few can pass to the next level and graduate. This is the only field in existance where secrets are not treated as secrets. |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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I think C. Loubard that there was an attempt at something like that with an association in magic. I am not sure what it was called I think and I could be wrong - I think it was called the MDA Magic dealers association. I think there was a good try at ethics and to credit and not to knock off stuff but I think it petered out because there was no way to enforce any of the talk.
I would like to point out that I have known some very Ethical people in magic. Back when I was learning the older magicians had rules and the young magician would close doors of opportunities if they did not follow the rules the older magicians set so to speak. I learned this early on. When I wanted to learn the Molinari cull from Jimmy Cards Molinari I asked him and he showed it to me about three times. And I went home and worked on it. As thing happened I did not see him again for about 10 years and I showed him what I was doing and he seemed to like that I worked it out. I used it all the time in my card work but never showed it to anyone because he asked me not to show it to anyone. I never had the "ego" of needing to expose something new to a bunch of magicians that I did not invent or come up with my own slant on. That was the way a lot of magicians were back then. If the guy showing you said don't teach it or show it to other magicians - I did not and a lot of other guys did not as well. Jimmy published it on a DVD and it was only after that that I asked him if it was OK for me to show it with the punch on my punch deal DVD. I asked before I published it after Jimmy published it. Jimmy said it was OK for me to show it but had he said no I would not have published my slant using the punch cull stuff. I published it because - things get around and I wanted credit for the ideas.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts
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Bish, that may have been the case, but the internet has made a change.
I am sure, someone with internet savvy could create a data base that issues RGN serial numbers everytime someone files something after a paypal thing has been accepted. The creator uploads his work to a data base and there it remains, date stamped. Very simple solution if you ask me. That's exactly how the Writers GUild takes works. May not prevent exposure, but it will give credit where credit is due. |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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That is a very good idea C. Loubard a very good idea Thanks very much.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Posted: Oct 11, 2007 01:21 pm 
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