Is putting magic methods into the public knowledge really worth "credit" from people who don't care about you or your feelings or even magic itself?

No, Jonathan, it doesn't. Exposure will always cntinue on some level; I don't have to tell you that. You already know. To a few, just getting credit is payment enough.

So it will be the first to publish (register) gets the credit, same as now. Jon, does that sound good to you?

That opens a sort of loophole where those who see or hear about a work in development can publish what they see fit without the inventor's consent and wind up spoiling the fun and the surprise for the community. Such a practice also contaminates our literature with half baked ideas, unproven methods, tricks without presentations or provenance... so IMHO it's not such a good way to handle things in any evolving field. IMHO it's a very bad way to handle matters in a craft of secrets.

The idea of "credit" from folks who start rumors that someone is dead so they can justify publishing something they know is a secret, or "credit" from those who don't care about the feelings of others makes me cringe.

Jonathan, there are loopholes in everything. But the way to overcome the issue you pointed out, don't share ideas with anyone. at the very least, it would encourage people to keep their works private until it's been registered; this is being done all the time in Hollywood.

Jonathan I think you are talking about another issue here. To put magic into "public" knowledge it would have to be easily available to all the public.

There are a lot of Public libraries that have books on magic and anyone can go in and learn from them. However, in my opinion it takes a lot of drive and desire to learn from books and dig out the secrets that way. Also if it is hard to learn in my opinion the harder it is to learn often that helps protect the secrets if the student becomes a serious student.

Magic shops will sell to anyone that walks in the door. People can buy products off an auction site or from a web site. However, generally people only interested in magic will put their money down on a secret to pay for it - if the product or secret has a high price.

The high price of some magic in my opinion helps protect some of the secrets. But that doesn't stop a TV producer from buying what they want and then exposing it on TV. Or a magician that owns the stuff and then decided to expose it for money or fame.

In magic we have magicians like Dai Vernon who the public really hasn’t heard of. Vernon (and others) are known in magic by magicians and respected partly because of their published ideas. Not for their years of performing for the lay audience or performing on the Ed Sullivan show or at the Palace theater two places that don’t exist today that my Dad performed at.

Whit is right - the first to publish often is the one that gets the credit.

Just my opinion.

Posted: Oct 12, 2007 9:50am
Quote:


On 2007-10-12 00:03, C. Loubard wrote:
Jonathan, there are loopholes in everything. But the way to overcome the issue you pointed out, don't share ideas with anyone.


This is 100% true in my opinion. If I remember right Nate Leipzig did not do his stack of coins routine for magicians. I think that it is written somewhere perhaps in the stars of magic or the Leipzig book - that he did not do that trick if he knew that there were magicians present in the audience.

If a magician comes up with a trick and performs it in public or to a wide media audience like on TV - there is a possibility of it - getting around and then someone else might publish it or manufacture the idea and sell it.

But like I said - that seems to be part of the price we have to pay for being performers and being in the performing business.

Just my opinion.

Glenn, I hold that to publish into our currently open market IS to expose the knowlege in that work to all and sundry. More simply, to publish is to expose.

There have been copies of the Harbin book on ebaY. And the Ganson books, including the Dia Vernon Book of Magic and Vernon's Tribute to Nate Leipzig have been offered. Any muggle could have bought the books. And with those books they are free to put any data they want onto their blogs, make videos to post on YouTube or worse... teach. Given this, I hold that at least for now, it's not such a good thing to go publishing. In this vein I am close to taking the position that any material a muggle can obtain is "public knowlege".

I do encourage all to go out and perform. To find trustworthy peers. And to spend as much effort as feasible to refine and evolve material which suits you and your audiences. When it comes time that you feel you must teach... there are other ways to teach than writing things from wich a muggle can spoil magic for others.

My perspective. I accept that your milage and sensibilities will differ.

J

That's because you aren't paying attention. That was a reply to another post which said that lying was a sin not unethical. I was correcting them that it was both. Not declaring you shouldn't lie because it was a sin, but then you never read everything that is written, so why should you start now? In fact, lying is what the religious who use the word "sin" define as one. Thus, weather you believe in a supreme being, sin has a definition and lying fits that definition. Careful getting down off that high horse, you wouldn't want to fall and hurt yourself.

Yes - but that doesn't mean the sky is falling.

Muggles learn secrets in my opinion when magicians expose them openly to them. Books sold on e-bay - the secrets - they still have to dig them out. Magic we also use our own language at times and our own words like load, palm, bring the card to the top by your favorite method.

It takes energy and drive to learn from magic from a book and they still have to part with cash to get it.

I agree as a magician - but we live in a ever changing world and to survive we must adapt. Just as we must adapt to meet the demands of the performing business.

Just my opinion.

Next time, drew, why don't you quote the other posters reply if that is who you are responding to.

And I never read anything? Wow, that's a first! The problem is you get upset when people don't accept your rhetoric as law.

I think I'll stay on my high horse for now. It's far easier to look down on you from up here.

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How I feel lay people spoil magic is by doing it wrong. I’m not for exposure, but I am all for teaching. Many who want to do magic, learn from others and do it badly. If I have to see the twenty-one card trick one more time I think I’ll scream.

By being selfish, we are promoting mediocrity. This is worse than exposure. Everyone is going to speculate how a trick is done anyway. At the magic shop when someone buys the Hovering Card, they expose it. But, the others around will not believe them. Especially when they can see for their own eyes that noting seems to be able to hold that card up.

The mask magician is dangerous because he shows step by step how to do it. This is an annoyance until it cycles out and people forget. However, I just saw one of those specials on cable in repeats.

However, what can we do? Continue plodding and do our magic. If someone questions, just say, “Yeah, that’s how it’s done, but this is the new and improved model.” I don’t know if that will work, but at least you put doubt in them.

Glenn, I'm going to take a guess about where and how we may disagree and offer my perspective.

IMHO magic survives not in magic shops but in the hearts of our audiences. I hold that the needs of the craft are served by those who make some muggle's day special by offering a few moments of wonder.

I hold that the future of our craft is ensured by the muses themselves who choose and speak to those fascinated by a desire to take what they imagine as wonderful and bring that vision to their own audiences. I hold that it is that desire to realize their visions of wonder and offer that wonder to others which will ensure the continued survival of our craft for so long as we can enjoy the experience of wonder.

That's my perspective. I'd like to hear more about yours.

That is very poetic Jonathan but I am not that concerned with the future of our craft only with it's present. As a problem exposure of magic has always been with us yet that has not ended magic as entertainment.

As problems theft, knock off products, copy cats and other problems have always been with us to.

Yet that does not stop creative people from coming up with new ideas and does not stop the performance of people in magic being original with an idea. Part of knowing something is successful is to "have" people copy you but there is a danger if the copy cat becomes to well known in using someone else’s idea that they the copy cat might be seen as the originator and the originator might be blamed as the copy cat.

That is why I think publishing the idea is important. Plus people in magic seem to remember the people that published ideas "more" than they remember the performers that did shows for lay audiences.

Exposure of secrets to muggles just to satisfy a moment of curiosity because they saw a magician in my opinion is not a good enough reason to share a magic secret.

But sharing secrets the right way - in a respectful way is partly how the art and the craft of magic moves forward and evolves. A lot of magic and how it evolves is taking an old idea and reworking it - old wine in a new bottle.

I don't have the answers - I only know that we live in a dynamic ever changing world and to survive we must adapt.

Just my opinion.

Posted: Oct 12, 2007 1:57pm
Quote:


On 2007-10-12 11:57, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
IMHO magic survives not in magic shops but in the hearts of our audiences.


The sprit of magic - the wonder - the effect of magic that lives in the heart and the imagination of the audience in my opinion.

But the technology of the slight of hand and other magic principles that in my opinion lives in the heart and the imagination of the magician. The books and video/DVD's are a teaching aids or "tools" of the technology, theory and principles of an art and a craft and a science that in my opinion is only used to "learn" this as a theater science. Or as an arts and craft.

I can walk into any magic shop and buy the tools to help me learn this art and craft just as I can walk into any music store and buy a drum set.

But that is no guarantee that I will learn how to "play" the musical instrument or become the magician of my dreams or just be someone that will make a lot of noise with my drum.

In magic we have both magicians and noise makers. And in the muggle world there are a lot of lay people that used to do magic as a hobby.

Just my opinion.

Hi Glenn,

Reading your posts I get the feeling you see magic tricks about the way you see music, something you can go into the store to buy and what counts is how you perform it. Is that close to your perspective?

Jon

Only at ground level Jonathan.

Okay Glenn, would you tell us some about the next level up from ground level?

Hey Jonathan

At the risk of repeating myself I would say the next level is meeting magicians and then learning from older and more experienced magicians that perhaps are or were in the business of doing magic shows.

Respect must be earned over time just as respecting secrets should be earned over time. Part of the problem today as I see it is that secrets are to easy to get. There is less respect in my opinion of things that are obtained to easily. If something is harder or takes work or a long time to get - there seems to be more value to it and more respect.

Magic secrets in my opinion are to easy to get.

But having said that we live in an ever changing world and to survive we have to change with the times.

Then the next level would be taking what you have learned and putting it into practice and give yourself and your material the opportunity to evolve and change in the practice of doing shows for live audiences.

This takes a lot of work and it is done over time. When the magician takes the time to evolve and change by doing shows - both his material and he or she will improve with time - they most likely will value what they do more in my opinion than if they just buy stuff and collect magic and don’t do shows and use the opportunity to evolve and grow.

But having said that - the doing the shows and evolving and growing - it seems to be the road less traveled today. It in my opinion is the harder road to travel - and it seems that today - there are some that don't want to work that hard and want it all the easy way.

But in my opinion people that work to get there value what they do a lot more.

Just my opinion.

When people publish only to get "credit" is this not part of the problem?

To me and only to me "credit" comes from my audiences. If another magician now or in 100 years knows I created anything, is not in my equasion.

I'd like that magician 100 years from now to have a chance to know what ideas have been explored, how they were explored, how the routines using those ideas evolved and what the folks doing all that work were trying. All so they, our future, can have the information to make the best choices for their own needs.

I think the problem for the originator/performer is not getting the credit. But that is only my opinion.

To me the audience acceptance and the appreciation of the audience are important. But it is also important to us for our family history to be remembered in the way of promo for business reasons. And like my father I have son's that will most likely carry the magic torch into the next generation.

Credit for my dads rope tie and his achievements are part of our family history and I promote it.

My shell game ending and routine (and other things)are also part of our family history and I promote it.

What my sons will add to it if they pick up the magic torch is anyone’s guess. Like a circus family - our history is intertwined with our family business of magic. And when the time comes I will teach them to promote our connection to Vaudeville through our family history as well as the routines that our family came up with.

In my opinion the lay audience often sees magicians that publish books and their own routines as masters of the craft. Publishing is part of the promotion a magician can do.

But that is also just my opinion.