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John T Cox Veteran user 386 Posts 
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In my return to magic these past few years I have found many angry magicians and also many childish magicians. I have also found very helpful and interesting magicians who care about our craft and art.
I am not surprised that Jake (for example) is angry about his own creations being ripped off. I am not surprised that people have an interest in doing what is right. I am surprised that people are so rude and disrespectful here. It's like bad sports fans hurling things at each other. To make progress we have to stop this practice. Some people care about this issue with fanatical passion and some see it as whining about what can't be changed, sweeping back the tide as it may be. But at least let's have a civil discussion.
The real magic is family!
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3632 Posts
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Just to add somthing here.... discussions are very very problematic by nature in a online forum. I account much of this to a lack of vocal tone and other persona notes lost in text.
during a recent discuss I lead it always seemed like people had the impression I was "upset" or really going off. I simply wasn't liek that at all but trying to discuss the matter simply. but how could anyone tell? this leaves a lot for inturrpetation that starts aurguments |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27470 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-10-18 11:54, Kent Messmer wrote:...posts are only to let any would be inventor PROTECT YOUR STUFF! ... What specifically do you suggest as regards protecting an item? By and large we are familiar with copyright and patent and trademark protections. And what specifically do you suggest we look at as regards pirates in our market?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Steven Conner Inner circle 2796 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-10-18 11:54, Kent Messmer wrote: Yes your father should have had them sign a Letter of Confidentiality, but he should have talked to the Attorney first before he ever agreed to meet with them. Without giving away all the secrets of magic, there is no way to protect without ethics. The point of this thread IMO is why do you want to do business with people who have no ethics or morals. If its about a few dollars, do something else. It appears you are content to accept this type of behavior which is obviously your right.
"The New York Papers," Mark Twain once said,"have long known that no large question is ever really settled until I have been consulted; it is the way they feel about it, and they show it by always sending to me when they get uneasy. "
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Kent Messmer Veteran user Montana 337 Posts
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[quote]On 2007-10-18 16:14, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
What specifically do you suggest as regards protecting an item? By and large we are familiar with copyright and patent and trademark protections. I'm sorry this is not being understood. Copyrights patents etc are the only way to protect. Yes they cost money to obtain, but so does not having one. MM has stopped making items where this has been supplied to them. Pirates are really a different deal, they don't care about the law so there would be nothing you could do. |
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Hart Keene Inner circle Eugene, OR 1486 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-10-16 12:52, Magicmatt1982 wrote: Just wanted to say that I find it funny that magicmatt1982 is sticking up for Magic Makers. Especially when he wrote this on another thread back in June regarding "The Reserve"... On June 19, 2007 Magicmatt1982 wrote: "I watch this dvd when it came into my families magic shop. It is all a rip off. I have talked to Rob(Stiff) about it but he does not care. So those are my thoughts". You can check it out yourself http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......m=111&21 The reason he is defending them is because he has a dvd coming out through Magic Fakers...Thought you all would like to know. |
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1050 Posts
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So Kent, you think it is ok as long as it is legal? You agree that MM is taking other's creations and ripping them off? You say that your father had something taken from him all because he didn't legally protect his idea, but yet you are supporting MM even though they do the same thing.
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2305 Posts
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It's sidestepping, smoke and mirrors and there is no justification in what MM does.
I won't attend conventions as a dealer because most allow at least one bozo with MM product and they act like carnival barkers, so convention boards can think about this, do you want original crafters and dealers in your convention or do you want people yelling at the top of their lungs like idiots? Rob Stiff is like a virus, he thrives off of other healthy material. But if we as creators take this away from him, then he's stuck with residual crap that no one wants. Kent you're wrong about it being legal and fair game, I'm in discussion now with the FTC about the exact copy of my Paul Fox cup by MM and the confusion that is being caused by them copying my specs, it seems their may be a legal issue here due to Rob Stiffs retooling and people not being able to tell PF cups from MM cups both mine, early Buzbys and orignal DD, not good for Rob, so this shoots your whole cough up the bux for protection or suffer the pilage theory. Take what Matt says with a grain of salt, he is only going by misinformation. He believes he knows Steve Bender very well, but I've known Steve a lot longer, since before Matt came to be with us on this earth as a matter of fact and Matt has been given a lot of misguided information about a lot of things, so he only had misinformation to share about some things. I'll say one thing about Matt though I have seen him peform some very original material, one being his Matrix Version of the cups and balls which I thought was very entertaining and I for one would not want to see his routine swiped by someone as it is very original and he put a lot of hard work into it.
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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Kent Messmer Veteran user Montana 337 Posts
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Jake, let me know how that turns out. In a court of law it is all a “who can prove what”, right or wrong, in court thing. Who can prove their case the best under the letter of the law is normally the one who wins, not necessarily who is right. I know I’ve been there more than most. (For those that have not read the whole 9 pages, I was in law enforcement and ICC law)
I have never displayed anything under false pretenses, cups & balls for example; I have ones from India, Canada and MM. There is a definite difference of all. You say people can’t tell the difference between yours and MM, how can that be if yours are so much better? I’m not saying that they are not, at all, I’ve never seen yours and I’m sure they are great. Just wondering. C&B has been around a long time. There have been many styles throughout the years. I’ve seen many that look the same. They don’t feel the same, sound the same or hold up the same, but they still look the same. So there have been numerous manufactures copying C&Bs. What makes yours so different? This is not an attack, just wanting to understand. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27470 Posts
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Nothing like squabbling over fashion while pirates bring booty into the market.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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michaelmystic2003 Inner circle 3136 Posts
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This effect screams "FLIPPER!!!"
Learn more about my upcoming book of close up magic and theory SYNTHESIS & SECRETS: A Magic Book in Four Acts: https://www.michaelkrasworks.com/synthesis-secrets
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Kent Messmer Veteran user Montana 337 Posts
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Not squabbling. Just looking for info.
I've really tried not to attack anyone for their thoughts, beliefs or feelings about how they have been done wrong. If I have, I truly apologize. I’m sorry. |
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2305 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-10-18 21:50, Kent Messmer wrote: Kent, You forgot something very important before making it into a court of law, Credibility, without it, you are dead in the water. MM has none, they make copies, they don't innovate, confuse the market place and the general consumer. They did this with the Hand of Cleopatra, except they did it so poorly that the effect didn't even work, not to mention we don't know how many actually made it in to the mainstream, this kills credibility. A member from the Café sent a set of cups to be indentified, I told him based on specs and the look of the cups they were legitimate PF cups. When I called him , he told me to sit down, he had just purchased them from Penguin for 99.00. Prior to this you could spot their cups a mile away, now someone who spec'd them out and has had more than 60+ sets of originals over the years pass through their hands couldn't tell the 2 appart, but after time I have now come to realize what to look for to tell if they are fakes or not. A MM cup is black on the inside for a reason and they will never be able to alleviate that because the cups are made with copper that contains scrap alloy such as zinc, aluminum, tin, and with China's reputation now, quite possibly LEAD. Yeah, I'll say, what a company, they're real concerned about their product and reputation displayed by thier actions, ie the copying, that kills Credibility. Again, there is not a thing in this lifetime that can support or condone the actions of this company copying others work in the fashion they do nor is there anything that supports the tacky dealers of such. Why are ours superior to MM, first off I know what is in my copper, I know the industry standards that have to be followed by foundrys so I know what is in my copper, our cups don't turn black, the beads don't crack as the stress from use cause the alloys in the copper to seperate, and above all it's made in the USA and to very strict quality control.
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3034 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-10-18 22:07, Michaelmystic2003 wrote: I couldn't help but smile here, if you only knew what your post screams...
Click to visit:
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2305 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-10-18 22:43, Dan Watkins wrote: I'm smiling because you're smiling because I know why you're smiling and what his post screams 
BTW, who is on first?
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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Terry Holley Inner circle 1809 Posts
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I missed the dolphin.
But speaking of dolphins, you might want to take the famous Dolphin Stress Test if you have never done so. It might be helpful for many of you as there seems to be a number of stressed out folks posting in this thread. http://marshalltyler.com/other/fun/stress/index.htm Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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Review King Eternal Order 14445 Posts
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I think tomorrow is pitching today.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2305 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-10-18 23:55, Christopher Kavanagh wrote: As long as I'm not pitching to Babe Ruth 
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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kihei kid Inner circle Dog House 1040 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-10-18 23:18, Mad Jake wrote: You both beat me to it. I don't know who's on first but I think flipper is sliding into forth base.
In loving memory of Hughie Thomasson 1952-2007.
You brought something beautiful to this world, you touched my heart, my soul and my life. You will be greatly missed. Until we meet again “my old friend”. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27470 Posts
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Funny thing is if you let Flipper vanish the fish in your left hand you havd something so surprising that you could even get away with using flash paper in your right hand to show off the other side of the trick. Flashpaper, a Copenetro, a sand frame... lots of ways to make a coin visibly appear out of thin air.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Illusion Coins by Magic Makers- Another Rip Off? » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (2 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Oct 18, 2007 07:35 pm 
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