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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Doc vs. Conely (A High Level of Discussion) (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Unknown419
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I know that this post belongs in the hand mucking section but I didn't want to detract from that thread.

Mr. Conely and I are not in a quarrel but due to the fact that I have students/readers reading my post, I have to clarify myself (visually if need be)) so that it won’t look like I have been picked apart by an expert which would make me look like a liar or unknowledgeable about what I’m talking about.

Here is what we both said and at the bottom my defense because what I would have talked about couldn’t have been explained in words clearly enough to satisfy my following to my satisfaction.

Quote:
On 2007-10-19 18:17, Ron Conley wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-10-18 11:13, Unknown419 wrote:

First off, the flat hand on table with a held-out card. I’m not saying that that move have never been done but that guy better look for the closest mortuary if he’s dumb enough to constantly keep a card in his hand flat on the table while waiting to do a switch.



Does this mean you don't like the handling as presented, seems hypocritical to jump all over others that basically say the same thing. Perhaps you justify this because you gave some advise, I chose not to give any advise at the time, but did say the mucks were deceptive which they are.

The flat palm blackjack type mucks have been around before any of us were born, and I have seen them take off lots of money. In the hands of the very best they can look beautiful.

Ron


To Whom This May Concern

I state the facts as I see it but if someone more experienced than I can prove me wrong I definitely don't mind changing my opinion but in this case I don't think so.

First off since Mr. Conely honed in on my statement it does make me look like I'm hypocritical but I'm not. There were certain things about palming I did not want to say but since Mr. Conely an expert in his field picked apart my statement that layman normally would overlook, it made me look this way; so now I must talk on Mr. Conely's level.

I stated what I stated because I had a friend by the name of Prett a dice and card mechanic (the man in my dice video who said regarding Steve..."this is what your man was trying to do") that held his palm flat on the table with a held out card for years and have gotten away with it but he did say that he had a partner that was way better than him and after I showed him a better way, he did admit that it was more logical to do it that way.

I said that to say this, my hustling friends (the blacks) know nothing of Steve nor any one like him. This knowledge of ours is passed down from hustler to hustler to hustler. Now if the hustler learns a sleight the wrong way, this is the knowledge that he's going to pass down to his student (You see how Allen Kennedy honed in on Dai Vernon's see saw when he dealt Walter Scott's seconds). With that said, who ever taught Scarne or my friend taught them wrong even though it was probably the best way they knew at the time.

Am I Jumping All Over The Place? In my opinion, no.

Even though Steve quoted you in his book, do you do hand mucks? Doing surveillance and doing the moves are totally two different talents; do you possess both and if you do hand mucks why is it that you did not tell my readers/students that passing your hand over a card is not logical in picking up a card from the table while turning it over.

Magicians slide a card under the other one and quickly turn the card(s) over thinking that they did a gambler's switch when all they did was a magic trick; it's totally illogical because the laws of physics prevents this telekinetic ability.

For the record Steve and Rod the Hop are my teachers concerning this matter and My Expose depict my advancement in this technique meaning I've gone beyond what they've shown me. Compare my one-handed two-card turn over to Steve’s. Some may not like it, but I like mine better because it’s even more logical than what my teachers taught me.

Mr. Conely since our conversation between us maybe misconstrued as an argument/disagreement to my students/readers they will not know what I'm actually talking about therefore these clips of my teacher’s handling will show that I'm definitely not confused and how a gambler is suppose to pick up cards lying on the table, how a card is held without bending the hell out of it, the get ready and the switch and last but not least the hand wash and clean-up.

If you think upon seeing this handling that these hand-mucking techniques are wrong I would like to see your footage of the correct way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC-E0toDGOQ


Respectfully,

Doc
Yiannis
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Doc, this is amazing footage and your analysis superb as always. Wow!
silverking
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Totally amazing Doc, thanks for posting that.
Mr. Z
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How about Doc posts clips of himself doing all this stuff for once instead of constantly throwing up clips of other guys (without their permission) just to gain popularity among this crowd? I just find it sad.

Doc seems ignorant to the fact that his behavior on this site makes it back to his "teachers" and they are none too happy about it. But you do what you gotta do...
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
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True artwork...thanks for sharing !
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Unknown419
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Quote:
On 2007-10-19 23:52, Mr. Z wrote:
How about Doc posts clips of himself doing all this stuff for once instead of constantly throwing up clips of other guys (without their permission) just to gain popularity among this crowd? I just find it sad.


Mr. Z. you're always the first one to say something and to have your face twisted about what I do but still the first one to always look at the stuff I post why?

Why should I post clips of me doing this stuff when it is my teacher(s) who deserve the honor. I'm a student and as a student I should render honor where honor is due. What you want me to do is exactly what Lucifer did in heaven when he was trying to steal God's glory and claim it as his own. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with being a student all I want to do is be the best student I can be and to give the props to who deserves it.

Quote:
Doc seems ignorant to the fact that his behavior on this site makes it back to his "teachers" and they are none too happy about it. But you do what you gotta do...


And you seem to be ignorant to the fact that what I just showed, showed no teaching of the moves. For the record these exact moves are depicted in his Casino Protection and Poker Protection Book or didn't you know that?

Mr. Z you can do me a favor by not reading my post.

Thanks in advance.

Doc
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Quote:
On 2007-10-20 00:16, Unknown419 wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-10-19 23:52, Mr. Z wrote:
How about Doc posts clips of himself doing all this stuff for once instead of constantly throwing up clips of other guys (without their permission) just to gain popularity among this crowd? I just find it sad.


Mr. Z. you're always the first one to say something and to have your face twisted about what I do but still the first one to always look at the stuff I post why?



See the second part of my post.

Posted: Oct 20, 2007 12:50am
Quote:


On 2007-10-20 00:16, Unknown419 wrote:
And you seem to be ignorant to the fact that what I just showed, showed no teaching of the moves. For the record these exact moves are depicted in his Casino Protection and Poker Protection Book or didn't you know that?



If you're that dense to think that's what this is about, then there isn't much else to say.

It's the whole principle of putting stuff out in the public domain without the permission of those featured. Do you really think Steve and Rod would appreciate you posting video clips of them without their consent?
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Clock
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I've waited a long tim to see something like this...
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Ron Conley
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Quote from Doc's post from the open shift thread on Oct, 1st

Note: I really wanted to post some of Steve’s footages to show you how it’s done in his book but his moves are not mine to show.


Respectfully,

Doc it's your words that make you look bad, not mine. What your doing is totally out of line.
Unknown419
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Quote:
On 2007-10-20 01:10, Ron Conley wrote:
Quote from Doc's post from the open shift thread on Oct, 1st

Note: I really wanted to post some of Steve’s footages to show you how it’s done in his book but his moves are not mine to show.


Respectfully,

Doc it's your words that make you look bad, not mine. What your doing is totally out of line.


Now I'm out of line. Don't try to put me on the spot and make me look bad or not knowledgeable in front of my readers/friends and students. Ya'll write books, tell stories in books quoting your name and making videos for who ever will buy it and it's okay but as soon as I write something I'm out of line; then you quote what I say to try to subconsciously make my readers forget that you are to admit that I was right or post footage proving that I was wrong.

Steve has revealed so much stuff in his books with your help that it's a shame but you say nothing to him or about him. That's butt kissing in my book. You know and I know that you have to live these moves in order to do them. Many read of these moves in his book and don't say anything about them but when I show ya'll how it actually looks in action I’m wrong even though I edit the footage of him teaching me.

Don't open up Pandora's box if you're not willing to deal with what comes out of it. You attacked my integrity and I defended my grounds with proof. Admit that I know what I'm talking about or produce your footage and prove me a liar.

Note: Many of you who have met me know that I don't talk down to a student and I will even hang with the kids if need be. I talked to all of ya'll as a friend that is seeking knowledge like I did even helping magicians that I meet in the magic stores while I'm there. I'm in this position because I've been lied to and led to believe lies written by magicians who wanted to boost their status in the magic community.

The Pot Calling The Kettle Black

Quote from Casino Game Protection

Mr. Conely according to page 432 in Steve's Casino Protection book did you not take privately owned casino footage and show it to Steve? Yes. In Steve's own words; "I've...been fortunate to see numerous techniques from draw and lowball, thanks to some very old surveillance footage from the private collection of Ron Conley.

Did the casino or place you worked for give you permission to show this? I doubt it being that the footage of these crimes were very old (meaning around the mid 70's early 80's).

A wise man once told me Mr. Conely...it's your words that make you look bad (too), not mine. So if what I did was out of line what you did was also out of line.


Respectfully,

Doc
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Oy.
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Unknown419
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There you go again...in everything but a coffin.

Mr. Z you are one of those so-called elite users that I spoke about who likes to look down on the little guy. You hang around Vegas butt kissing to see moves so you can come here and act like you're an authority on what can and can't be done. Then like the little tattle tale that you are run back to Steve and say Doc is talking and showing things about you again. In our world you're snitch. You probably couldn't bust a move if they paid you.

How is it that you know so much about me showing them respect. When did you become God and able to read minds and convey their thoughts?

You say I crave attention so what if I do? Why are you constantly on my jock strap. Leave me alone and mine your business. You ain't nothing but a snitch and an instigator; and as far as me being a nutjob so what if I am. You're just a squirrel in this world trying to get a nut.

At any rate keep butt kissing but stay out of my way.

(This is the nice version)


Signed

The Doctor
ASW
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Quote:
On 2007-10-20 03:33, Unknown419 wrote:

Mr. Conely according to page 432 in Steve's Casino Protection book did you not take privately owned casino footage and show it to Steve? Yes. In Steve's own words; "I've...been fortunate to see numerous techniques from draw and lowball, thanks to some very old surveillance footage from the private collection of Ron Conley.


You can't see the difference between the head of security for a joint showing one guy his tapes... and you posting other people's work they gave you in confidence on the web for all to see?

You can't see the difference?
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Mr. Z
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Ha, well I may be elite but "special" certainly describes you, Doctor...
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
O J
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Quote:
On 2007-10-20 04:13, Unknown419 wrote:
There you go again...in everything but a coffin.

Mr. Z you are one of those so-called elite users that I spoke about who likes to look down on the little guy. You hang around Vegas butt kissing to see moves so you can come here and act like you're an authority on what can and can't be done. Then like the little tattle tale that you are run back to Steve and say Doc is talking and showing things about you again. In our world you're snitch. You probably couldn't bust a move if they paid you.



LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brilliant Doc

That really does some it up. Thanks for the footage and keep it coming.
Unknown419
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Quote:
On 2007-10-20 04:21, ASW wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-10-20 03:33, Unknown419 wrote:

Mr. Conely according to page 432 in Steve's Casino Protection book did you not take privately owned casino footage and show it to Steve? Yes. In Steve's own words; "I've...been fortunate to see numerous techniques from draw and lowball, thanks to some very old surveillance footage from the private collection of Ron Conley.


You can't see the difference between the head of security for a joint showing one guy his tapes... and you posting other people's work they gave you in confidence on the web for all to see?

You can't see the difference?


No I don't see the difference. I see two people with footage that belongs to someone else. Both people show the other parties gambling moves without showing how it's done nor do they get consent from there owners. One show his on the Internet and gets known for his knowledge while the other show all of his to close friends etc. in Vegas and this is how he gets known for is knowledge.

I see both parties being innocent or both parties being guilty. In either case whatever the outcome is, both parties will share the same fate.

ASW you will not be a good judge because you're impartial for whatever reasons. The facts are the facts like 'em or not.

I rest my case


Signed,

The Doctor

Posted: Oct 20, 2007 5:30am
Quote:


On 2007-10-20 04:21, Mr. Z wrote:
Ha, well I may be elite but "special" certainly describes you, Doctor...



LMAO...now this is funny. Okay you won this round.


Respectfully,

Doc
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As far as I understand, Doc you're the one who did the video footage. So from a 'legal' point of view, you own the rights on it. Besides we can't see anyone's face. Privacy of the people is respected. We just see moves. No clear explanations on how to do them.
It's easy to blame someone and give moral advices.

Awesome video, Doc.
Ron Conley
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I have no books or videos to sell, maybe someday. The tapes you refer to came from the Rainbow Club in Gardena California, they are private property, mine. I was a shift manager their when it closed so I ask Tom Parks the Managing General Partner if I could have them, his answer was yes. I have other tapes that I got the right way also. There are other tapes that although it was OK for me to have them it would be out of line to show them. Over the years some casinos have supplied tapes for me to review, that I was not required to return. I would be wrong to show these publicly.

Steve has been a dear friend what more can I say. I admire him as a human being just as much as I do for his beautiful moves and tremendous knowledge. Even though it's been 20 years since we first sat down my jaw dropped so far it still hurts. Now is not a good time to talk about him though and I'm not guessing.

Doc you have my respect for your knowledge and ability and your friends and students will read this. My apologies if I did anything to make you look bad. All have sinned and fallen short, this includes both of us. I know way worse things about myself than anyone is going to post on the Internet.

In closing all I can say is I'm done with it, should this war continue it will be without me.

Peace to all sincerely, Ron
Unknown419
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Mr. Conely you're an expert in your field therefore much respect should be given to you for paving the way for us wanna-be's. There was a time when Mr. Loubard and I had a similar discussion on the topic of N-Strippers and I honed in on him because of a statement that he made. I knew the answer because I know the field and something just wasn't right. You did the same thing with the statement that I made, which only an expert saw through like yourself.

The only thing that I was trying to prove to my readers was that I wasn't being hypocritical even though it seem that I was. Many look up to me and it would be heartbreaking to me if I let them down. (It's a spiritual thing). There are things that these guys will never understand about hustling even though it's right smack dead in their face because all they want to know is how the cards get from one place to the other. I will take down the footage very soon but I want the readers to know that the level they're searching for is far beyond what they would ever know.

You're a legend in your part of the world and since us blacks have no legends because ours die having had no exposure to anything, our legacy is lost. Now since I'm here and since the arrival of the Internet, I want to let the world know that we play a major part in it too. This is why I can't let my fellow readers/students down because they are the ones that will immortalize me and if my teaching is wrong they will kick everything I say and my post to the curb.

You know what Ron? We're basically of the same mold (hustling back ground). Why do you say that? When I was at Tannen's one day I met a white hustler in the store. We started chattin' and stuff and he took me uptown to the Jewelry District here in NYC. I met up with some other hustlers and to my surprise we all spoke basically the same lingo. They took me under their wing like they knew me forever. I felt great to be with them.

I said that to say this, in the hustling world even though there are color boundaries, the way these guys made me feel, I didn't even notice it. We kept it real with each other. I know you said that you have no books or videos to sell but I know that if you did, you could (smile). You're right about it's not a good time to talk about Steve because our two worlds do connect. Silence is golden.

Mr. Conely, your students/readers need to know that Doc humbly apologizes for any disrespect that was conferred upon you. Students Mr. Conely is a legend and should be respected as such. He's one of our teacher's, teacher. His talent may not be like ours but he was there and has the footage to prove it. If it weren't for him a lot of the lost knowledge that we search for would be forever lost. Our archives are a safe house so that the knowledge we have can be passed on to the elite.

Yes you students are the future hustlers of tomorrow and like Mr. Conely helped Steve when he was young, I'm helping you. There was a misunderstanding because the student (which is I) thought that he had all the sense but now that I have shut-up I'm back to my senses again.

Mr. Conely thanks for writing and talking to me. May the Lord bless you and your family.

Take Care,

Your New Friend and Student


Signed

The Doctor
tommy
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Nice card work anyway.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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