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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Hiya, Magi:
Baba's recent, eloquent post has gotten me thinking, and - rather than puzzle this one through unaided - I've decided to toss the fat upon the embers and watch it flare. To wit: "Meaning," though a word that's often bandied about in our Art, seems to me like Euclid's straight line - an undefined term. That is, it may be recognised, but not articulated. I've just finished re-reading "Magic And Meaning" and have no better working definition than what I had before; for linear thinking, hide-bound minds like mine, this is...frustrating. Does my own Magic have "meaning?" Dunno. I certainly present it with autobiographical detail, imbue it with caricatured or embellished personality, and strive to weave within it a certain narrative flow. Many of my pet effects have a "wise-guy-gets-upstaged" theme, perhaps pandering to the audience's sense of retribution rather than expressing any profound "meaning." [In such effects, I play the wise guy...that doesn't surprise you, of course...and I, or a younger self, am the butt of a joke or the object of a lesson in humility taught by someone more cunning.] Clearly, humanity struggles with and is defined by certain broad categories: Life, death, want, pain, triumph, curiosity, etc. Magic at its most evocative (as any other Art) stems from these common roots. But "meaning" remains elusive, and one wonders whether it is by nature abstract, implying rather than informing, in Magic a theatrical Rorschach blotch whose "meaning" is interpolated by the viewer rather than communicated by the performer. Comments, brickbats, flaming stakes? Leland |
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Mark Rough Inner circle Ivy, Virginia 2110 Posts |
I'm leaning in the "meaning is interpolated by the viewer" camp. Now, that doesn't mean (ha, ha) that the meaning isn't true, or real, or accurate (whatever you'd like to call it is fine). And that doesn't mean that our pieces don't have a meaning we ascribe to them as well. I just think that different people experience things differently. So while you're ambitious card routine, to over-use an over-used effect, may be meaningful to you because it evokes the feelings you have about your mother-in-law (we might as well over-use that as well), it may evoke feelings about the inevitability of fate in a spectator. It just depends on where you're coming from. Sorry, that's rather self-evident, isn't it. I wish I could explain it better. You're right, it's a hard definition. Next. . .
Mark
What would Wavy do?
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docsteve Inner circle 1831 Posts |
Leland, I love this post. I can't reply now, and I've already deleted 3 responses because I can't quite frame my thoughts. Let me think (and in the meantime I hope some of the real sages of this forum will respond to help me understand my own thoughts about this!)
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Hey, Mark:
Thanks for your thoughts! It's tempting for me to categorise Magic according to abstract/concrete labels, as in other Art forms (painting, sculpture, etc.). This has not always been helpful, as even concrete appearances may have abstract and subjective influences. For example, in my living room is an oil painting that clearly depicts a farm on an overcast day; it is photographic in its detail. Yet...the perspective, shading, and colouration seem to me to hint at a sense of foreboding, separation, even death. Whether the artist intended that meaning is another matter, as you've noted. Come to think of it, many of my favourite paintings are just as ambiguous, indecipherable, or subjective. And, even those with a very clear artistic intent ("The Burghurs of Calais") are viewed through the lens of my own biases, expectations, emotions, etc. Dunno that there is an answer, but thank you for adding to the dialogue. Doc: Looking forward to your thoughts. Bill: How 'bout winding up the mainspring on that ancient computer of yours and chiming in? |
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Mark Rough Inner circle Ivy, Virginia 2110 Posts |
I've been thinking some more so this is just a continuation of what I was thinking.
. . . That's not to say that there aren't very powerful symbols/images that seem to evoke common feelings in most people seeing them. In that sense, somethings create a meaning common to all of us. Mark
What would Wavy do?
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
Meaning = full of significance; expressive.
I think Mark hit on the key word here. Meaningful which is defined as "full of meaning, significance, purpose, or value; purposeful; significant". |
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docsteve Inner circle 1831 Posts |
OK I'm drunk now, and so will resort to this:
Meaningful magic is like pornography: you7 can't quite define it, but everyone knows exactly what it is when they see it. (Ok, ok, I promise to think of something sensible in the morning. G'dnight 'n Godbless)
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Philemon Vanderbeck Inner circle Seattle, WA 4694 Posts |
"Meaning" is what happens when you can answer the question, "Why?"
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician "I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five." |
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Gotama Veteran user 381 Posts |
There is, of course, meaning for the performer and meaning for the audience. I need to think more about meaning for the performer so the following is more closely related to meaning for the audience.
For me, meaning in magic is interwined with magic as an art. As an art, it is a form of expression that is attempts to provide, as Mark pointed out, an experience for the person viewing the performance. As an entertainer, you are trying to convey an idea, a mood, a feeling, and more. The viewer may or may not obatin this experience from your performance. Their experience may even be very different from what you were trying to pass on. Think of da Vinci's Mona Lisa, we all can look at it and experience different emotions and ideas. Meaning, in this case, is not something specific. Rather, it is the involing of emotions and feelings in your audience. It can be a sense of wonder, a laugh at something funny, a sense of fear and trepidition, a feeling of being amazed, or many more emotions and feelings. Meaning, therefore, is both something universal and, yet, individually defined by the experience of the event and its interpretation by the viewer.
I asked the boy beneath the pines.
He said, "The master's gone alone herb picking, somewhere on the mount, cloud hidden, whereabouts unknown." (Chin Tao, 777-841, trans. by Alan Watts) |
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Bill Ligon Inner circle A sure sign of a misspent youth: 6437 Posts |
Oh, I thought for a moment that I had lost the wind-up key to the computer.
"Meaning," I would say, involves stimulating the >interest< as opposed to merely the attention of the spectator. This means relating the effect to something personal for each member of the audience. Perhaps we can't necessarily reach every member of any particular audience, but we should try to do so. However, any effect should somehow impinge on the life experiences or the world-view of the spectator, either reinforce it or (heaven forbid!) oppose -- I mean, "challenge" -- the belief system of the viewer. Bill
Author of THE HOLY ART: Bizarre Magick From Naljorpa's Cave. NOW IN HARDCOVER! VIEW: <BR>www.lulu.com/content/1399405 ORDER: http://stores.lulu.com/naljorpa
<BR>A TASSEL ON THE LUNATIC FRINGE |
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-10-23 16:17, Leland Stone wrote: First sentence should read "....favourite paintings AND SCULPTURES are just as ambiguous... ." FWIW, I saw a copy of Rodin's "Burghurs" many years ago and its imagery and power remain as forceful today. Which is apparently where the discussion is listing towards: Artist and audience may implicitly, yet severally, connect through a given medium. Which is further frustration, in my view. I know of few more satisfying experiences than to write or speak a thought and have it comprehended by another individual (or group). This is the essence of communication, and if that comprehension does not take place, then miscommunication and less complete satisfaction typically result. [Imagine two people at dinner, neither of whom speak the other's language. They may both understand the other's satisfied "mmmmm" noise upon their sampling the main dish, but they won't be able to discuss the complexity of the dish, its layered flavours that evoked such gustatory approval. Their shared experience is less than its potential, and there may be much less commonality than there appears to be.] Just off the top of my head, it seems that the closer one comes to creating meaning in one's performance (significance and so forth, as Jaz pointed out], the better one's Magic would tend to be. And, to me, this would entail clear communication of a particular viewpoint. I like the idea of challenging the world view of the spectator(s), Bill. When I read your post, I thought of the jester, the medaeival clown who alone mocked the king with impunity. Yet in doing so, filled a very important role -- if the king's decrees were themselves foolish, they could not withstand the mockery of a fool. |
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Gotama Veteran user 381 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-10-23 22:04, Leland Stone wrote: Yet, a skilled performer is always communicating a clear message. It is the interpretation of that message that is dependent upon the viewer and their life experiences, beliefs, prejudices, and other factors. In your example of the two people eating, it is the chef that created the message. I think you go off on a tangent when you have the eaters trying to comunicate the essence of the dish. Both eaters are experiencing the message. although they may not be able to full communicate with each other. Even with the language problem, the basic experiences of whether the dish was good or not, spicy or not, hot or not, and so on can still be communicated between the two eaters. The real question is did the chef create the taste that he or she wanted in the dish? The business of a magician or mentalist is basically one of entertaining the audience. They can do it by creating a sense of wonder and awe, by using humor, and so on. They may want to confirm the belief of their audience (such as Christian magicians) or challenge their audience's sense of what is reality. Meaning is also something we all struggle with everyday. Just look at this thread. We are trying to say something that has meaning to the other readers. This process is difficult. Often the meaning of a communication (be it a word, gesture, a symbol, and so) is confined to one of three perspectives. First, that which the speaker or writer meant to communicate (Humphrey Dumpty's "When I use a word, it means just waht I chose it to mean - neither more nor less."). Second, the representation associated with the physical symbol used (such as X marks the spot). Three, the apprehended representation of the hearer, viewer, or reader (the significance of the message as received). I will not go into all of the sutblities involved with these three perspectives, but the quality of meaning is clearly dependent upon the the creator of the message using the terms, symbols, gestures, and procedures necessary for his or her audience to grasp the creator's intended meaning. And Bill, don't get me started on Buddhist ideas of meaning. (P.S. I get a little windy at times, if you get my meaning). Stuart
I asked the boy beneath the pines.
He said, "The master's gone alone herb picking, somewhere on the mount, cloud hidden, whereabouts unknown." (Chin Tao, 777-841, trans. by Alan Watts) |
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KOTAH Inner circle 2289 Posts |
The 'meaning of magic may be as elusive as the 'meaning of life. I think the meaning is that which gives importance to us ; or that from which importance is given. In the case of magic it may be an object lesson, or the touch of an emotion. Then again, I may not know what I am talking about. Far too deep for me to fathom.
Kotah |
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docsteve Inner circle 1831 Posts |
I'm still struggling to structure this, but here goes.
Art has an innate essence of "quality" (used in the "Zen & The Art of Motorcycle Maintainence" sense) that communicates (primarily) higher emotions and to a certain extent intellectual ideas; it is not for all, and indeed in this day and age it is often for the few. Despite that, when the 'average Joe' is placed in front of a piece of Art, in real time, most will get that 'something' - a sense of that Quality. (In my own philistine way I remember going to the Ballet - no interest in dancing, and a keen sense of young manhood under threat, yet I was struck by the combination of music, grace & athleticism on display; I've still only been to 4 ballet's since over 18 years, and it's still not my favourite form of entertainment.) Now I also enjoy the occasional "no brainer" movie, or a bit of toilet humour, and every now and again a hot dog or Big Mac. And for the that moment, I really enjoy those things, although there is a deeper sense of something within requiring sustainence - I hate to lapse into cliche, but "something to feed the soul". Leland gives some examples of routines that he hints may have little meaning; this summer I did 3 gigs where I was nothing more than a juggler or trickster - a series of unrelated puzzles or displays of sleight of hand; a banquet of Big Mac magic. My audiences 'lapped it up', in the same way I'm lead to understand MacDonalds is quite popular with The People. I feel, to satisfy MYSELF, I should struggle towards this Ideal of presenting a piece so that it conveys an emotion and/or idea/thought that resonates within (at least some of) the audience in a METAPHORICAL way, in the same way a fine painting or sculpture would. And then even if some 'don't get it' they recognise an artistic investment made by within the presentation of the routine. If I'm being generous to myself, I think I may have achieved this once. I'm going to write up the routine I did, post it elsewhere, and invite thoughts/criticism so that I might continue this slow path to my Ideal (which I accept I may never reach). Heavy stuff - sorry. Blame Leland.
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Christian & Katalina Elite user 407 Posts |
What a thought provoker.
Meaning in the theatrical sense would be a clear plot and reason for performing your effect. The audience must be given a clear premise to follow. I do not think you must have a deep life altering experience but the show or piece must have a reason. That reason becomes your meaning. Now, that reason might not be a good one, and that thought can open up many more discussions. Christian & Katalina
Milbourne Christopher Award for Mentalism 2011
The Annemann Award for Menatalism 2016 Author of "Protoplasm" Close-up Mentalism |
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Bill Ligon Inner circle A sure sign of a misspent youth: 6437 Posts |
I think Docsteve said it well. There is a time and place for "Big Mac" magic, but I much prefer "haute cuisine." That said, sometimes nothing beats a hamburger or a hot dog.
Bill
Author of THE HOLY ART: Bizarre Magick From Naljorpa's Cave. NOW IN HARDCOVER! VIEW: <BR>www.lulu.com/content/1399405 ORDER: http://stores.lulu.com/naljorpa
<BR>A TASSEL ON THE LUNATIC FRINGE |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
I'm actually a little surprised to find this in the Bizarre section.
You Bizarrists tell stories with magic effects as visual illustrations of some part of your stories. Those illustrations have a purpose and in my opinion accentuate the meaning of those stories. |
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james1a Loyal user 209 Posts |
Hi:
I was watching the cole porter biography s'wonderful, in the directors discussion he mentione4d that one critical scene in the film very close to the beginning neither he nor the leading actor could understand what it meant or what the actual situation in the extended scene was about. So they just played it. It worked wonderfully, magic has no meaning get out the sponge balls. Aternatively one could read"The Meaning of Meaning". james1a |
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Gede Nibo Inner circle 2447 Posts |
To me. magic is simply (or quite complex, as it were), the KEY, nay, "a" Key to the Door of One SELF....
a tool. not unlike the tools in the blue lodge, or red... tools what we sue to restructure the mentality of the youth. I am Shaman. I am witchdoctor. I am that I am. I aum. Baba |
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docsteve Inner circle 1831 Posts |
Baba
I have some questions - do you ever compromise your stance, or are you 100% living the part (I mean even with doing coin vanishes with kids, etc, or if a friend says the dreaded "Oi mate, show us a trick then...") And if you do, does that mean you work solely with the Loas, never straying from the Vodou belief system? And finally, are you becoming known, like your Houngan teacher, 'The Medicine man' in your area/community? Peace brother Steve
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