While I feel that my comments on the trick that I reviewed above are correct, nonetheless, I would hate to discourage that young magician from creating. And, should he run his tricks past someone who can give feedback, such as other knowledgeable magicians, or past many audiences for a long time, and continue to refine his ideas over time, I think he could create something great. His basic idea is a good one, it just needs some work.

And, I became negative, when there was probably a positive way to express my point.

The Division Among Us. is a great topic. The only distinction, which has already been made in this topic, is that the difference should not be between young and old, it should be between those with knowledge and experience, and those of us who don't have (relatively) much of either.

This is an interesting distinction and a fair one. However, I would make a different distinct that I think is more important. The difference isn't young and old as there are a lot of new magicians entering the fray later in life (like me in my 40s). The difference of knowledge and experience versus inexperience is valid but not at the heart of the divide.

In my opinion the divide is "arrogance" versus "humility". There are a lot of younger and/or inexperienced magicians that are completely arrogant. But there are a lot of experienced magicians that completely lack any humility either.

Well I think it actually is a combination of each.

The chronological age thing is not important except when people say "I have been doing magic for 6 years. Then find out they are 16. The experience from 10-13 they are not learning as much and as valid information as they would from 19-22.

So in that respect age DOES matter.

After 18 or so, experience is experience.

Humility and arrogance are interesting terms as they are subjective. These are traits that more often than not we apply on others because of what we see from them and how it strikes us emotionally.

Experience in front of an audience seems to be a measure I am fond of. At 16 you just don't have that. With SO much information out today, good and bad, it is not possible to have gone through all of it by the time you are 16, let alone absorbed it and tried it all out.

I know every young person in the world has thought they were the next big thing, that they had all the answers, and everyone was trying to keep them down.

Maybe, just maybe, we are trying to help them out.

I try to ignore arrogance. I only care if someone is right.

I'd rather have an arrogant, patronizing, condescending, egocentric maniac for a teacher than someone who was nice, but ignorant!

Shed your ego, and seek the truth. If your concentrating on the other person, instead of what they're telling you, then most of the time you're not thinking of the right thing.

I also think this issue is even more basic than knowledge and experience, even though they do generally matter.

If you want to find good magic, then it's best to evaluate what is produced, rather than evaluating the characteristics of the person who produced it.

Earlier in the topic I mentioned that young girl in Japan, who created the head-off-of-body illusion. Cyril purchased the rights for that from her. She advanced the art of magic by creating that routine, which she used to win a talent show. She wasn't evaluated because of her age, rather, her trick was evaluated to be great because of what it is.

Of course, if you want to buy a magic-related product created by someone inexperienced, or someone young, and there has been no review of the product, then purchasing the product is risky. It's more likely to be mediocre, or even bad.

I guess this has been dealt with but if a young kid invents something new then how does the kid protect his invention if not by pubishing it? If he just performs it you can bet someone will steal it and publish it. Indeed that applies to young and old.

That is off topic, but this topic has been beaten to death!

Write it up, and send the document to lots of people you trust. Make sure the document has the date in it. Also, while securing your idea, also send it to some knowledgeable people for review of originality, and whether the method, presentation, or effect, is workable and/or properly constructed.

Elisha Gray was just a few hours late submitting his document to the patent office, and he might have been first. We remember Alexander Graham Bell instead. A paper trail can make a big difference.

I've followed this topic since its inception, but didn't want to participate, because...well...it's just too difficult a topic to speak rationally about without offending young people. And I love young people. I am a teacher.

My initial reaction was to agree that it is rather presumptuous of teenagers to become "lecturers".

And I still think this to be true.

I thought about this thread tonight for this reason: tonight has been a "Chris Thile Evening" for me. I'm reading the Café and listening to Chris Thile. And I'll tell you: I would, if I had the opportunity, ask him for a few musical tips. Right now I'm listening to him, and I don't hear a teenager. I hear a musician. A gifted musician with incredible musicality and sensibility and technical virtuosity. So yes, I would shake his hand and ask him for tips and get his autograph and thank him for his music.

And yet I would still agree with the basic premise of this thread: that younger people are not yet ready to present themselves as teachers.

Why not?

Because there is a difference between being gifted in an art and being gifted in teaching.

This distinction may have been made somewhere in this thread; if so, I have forgotten about it, and I apologize.

But I would say that if I go to a 20 year old and ask him or her for tips, that is one thing; for him or her to go on a lecture circuit and offer DVDs is another.

And I do not doubt that some young people might be gifted with the gift of being good teachers. What I doubt is that this talent usually or even often corresponds with their talent at a particular art.

Can one of you here name a single young person...a young person widely recognized as gifted at magic (like Chris Thile is gifted at music)...who has DVDs for sale?

This discussion is too theoretical. Yes, young people can be gifted magicians. It is also thinkable that a young, gifted magician might ALSO be a gifted teacher. Thinkable. I won't rule it out. But can you name one? Can you?

I don't want to offend young people. As a teacher, I have worked with and been interested in young people (college-aged, just to clarify) my entire adult life. I have learned from them, to be sure. I have learned a LOT from them.

BUT: I have said elsewhere here at the Café that the biggest logical mistake in internet forums is the "either ... or" fallacy. In this case the fallacy goes like this: either kids shouldn't be out on the lecture circuit, or they should. The real answer is something different: in general, kids have no place pretending to be teachers. But this is only a general rule. Should a magical version of Chris Thile come along who also has the teaching skills of Michal Ammar, then let him teach for goodness' sake. Let him make DVDs and give lectures and let us praise him.

But is there such a young person around?

What is theoretically possible is not necessarily likely.

Thus while Justin might have been a bit strong in asserting what he did so unequivocably, his basic premise--that 16 year-olds have no business putting out lecture notes and DVDs--is generally sound.

BTW: Chris Thile ROCKS!

Jeff

I have to add this just to add it.

I have seen many many many many guys doing lectures, far older than 16, in magic far more than 20 years, and have NO BUSINESS DOING IT EITHER!

I think it needs to be cut back on tremendously. I think we have WAY too many of them. That is becoming a problem in magic society today.

Danny, you're right that there are way too many lectures going on these days. Not just in magic, either.

There is a very young person here at the Café who lists "lecturer" as one of his occupations in his profile. And it gives me pause, though I haven't the slightest idea how talented he is. He might be a genius. But how can a 13 or 14 year-old call themselves a "lecturer", as if it's not just one or two tips he might give to beginners, but rather that he is some kind authority on something, and can travel the world inspiring and teaching those who are willing to learn from a master?

I got into this thread because after long discussion Jason backed off and softened up: but his initial observation was a VERY good one. And it saddens me that he backed off, because I think we have a problem in todays society, and he put his finger on it. Ultimately it has little to do with young people--they are just easiest and most obvious example. Ultimately it has to do with a kind of relativism: we are loathe, in our democratic society, to assert or admit that someone's opinion might be more valuable anyone else's. You see this relativism--shovels full, in fact--in this thread.

So Danny is right: we have too many lectures today, because we have too many "lecturers", and we have too many lecturers because everybody who has a good idea should be free to teach it.

Of course, this all breaks down when people start getting into things like medicine and nuclear physics: we don't let just anybody cut us open or build bombs. But outside well-established areas in which systems are in place for people to establish credentials, there is only a mentality of "let everyone have their say...", whether they are highly thoughtful, rational people or stark raving lunatics. (In fact, I've just pretty much described an internet forum.) And young people are especially easy to single out, because they enter forums all over the internet on every subject imaginable and jump into the discussions and expect to be treated as equals. Do some of them know what they are talking about? Some do. But the majority have no place trying to "teach" the others anything.

But it's not just internet forums. Take a glance at YouTube and you'll find 13 and 14-year olds teaching just about anything imaginable. And of course these kids also go into classrooms and expect teachers to accept their opinions as equal to those of established experts. It's all relative, anyway. Isn't it? "I mean, I feel that Socrates should have been a little less theoretical and gone out into the real world...." and other such idiotic statements are commonplace comments in classrooms across the western world. "I feel that Hitler was...like...a really bad guy...." "I feel that racism is...like...really uncool and should be avoided." "I feel that the Red Hot Chili Peppers provide an excellent commentary on social and sexual roles in the United States...." "I feel" "I feel" "I feel".

That this disease--not exclusive to the young, but obviously present among them in epic proportions today (ask any teacher)--should affect magic is no surprise.

And magic is suffering from this relativism.

Jeff

Not exclusive to the young, man I like that. Great point and I tried to articulate it and could not.

I guess my problem is this.

Teaching is a skill. A very dificult one as it works out. Magic is also a skill. Perhaps not as dificult but a skill no less. So to be a magic "lecturer" you need at least these 2 skills combined. The younger you are the less likely you are to be in posession of both skills at the same time.

When you are a poor teacher of ANY age you are going to create poor students. This is only a belief of mine and not fact but it seems to make senes. I think this is why I rail so hard against this type of thing.

The other point is as Jonathan shows us is that it often amounts to "grading homework" or looking at rehashed material not atributed properly. This is not fun and as he says "cluters our literature".

Last year I attended a lecture by a youngish (from my perspective) guy whose name was known to me, from his association with a magical periodical I had seen, which deals primarily in card work.

I was somewhat disappointed in the lecture, due to the fact that the performer mentioned seemed a bit ill at ease and uncomfortable in his role as lectureer. The material presented was interesting, but not sufficiently original or well presented enough to warrant a $25 admission price. I put it down to being the opening of a tour, which might get better as the performer had a chance to tune it up on the road. I purchased two sets of "lecture notes" being offered, and was even more disappointed to discover that they were poorly written and reproduced, and very difficult to interpret. They needed editing badly, and were very difficult to work from.

This was from someone whose name would be known to many on this forum, and who has published work of value in the past. I hope he has had a chance to rewrite his notes, and also to work on and polish his lecture. I know I won't be shelling out for a ticket if he passes this way again.

My point is, regardless of the performer's age or experience, I think it might be a good idea to show what they have to offer privately to their mentors in magic, before deciding to offer it to the wider community of magicians.

As those of you who know me know, I am an outsider to magic, and my involvement has been sometimes shocking to me.

Whatever happened to: we are performers who love a specific art and want to develop mentor/student relationships? When did this begin: I can make a few bucks on this idea, not by performing it, but by selling it.

The ancient Greek distinction between philosopher and sophist applies here, I think. Good ideas are ideas for sale. Why shouldn't young people be involved in this commerce?

And DStachowiak comes around and says:



And I say BRAVO!

This isn't really about young and old. Nor is it about experience and inexperience. It is about some much deeper plague running through the contemporary understanding of what "knowledge" is.

I read the first couple of pages of this discussion and found myself being drawn away from the original thoughts that came to mind as I read the opening post. So I jumped to the end while some of those thoughts were still in mind.

I personally agree with what Justin had to say. I mean I might not have worded t quite that aggressively but there has been times when I felt the same way. The only ting I don't agree with is the age issue. While it's true that most of them that fall into the category Justin discussed are teen agers. I also see older magicians that fall into that too.

I think there are a number of reasons why this is happening. First and foremost is the technical era we are in. Back in the day you needed bucks to make a book or a instructional video. I remember when I was a teen ager I wanted to "Make an instructional magic video" and I still have some of those videos (VHS of course). I'm so thankful that the video turned out terrible and I couldn't afford to make more then a few of them. For if I pop it in the player now I see myself teaching things that I now know just about every magician knows. But at the time I felt that I was so good that I it would be worth money if I sold it.

If it would have been today I probably would have ended up selling that terrible instructional video on the internet and get all kinds of negative feed back. I would have been crushed and who knows if I would still be a magician today.

I also think about a post I made a few years ago in the new to magic section about the different phases of magic study. We all go through different ones but there are some common ground phases we're all likely to go through. One of them is what I call the "Know it all" phase. I don't mean that we think we're a know it all but we get the feeling that we know enough that we now consider ourselves a professional magician and no other magician would able to fool you. But what usually fallows that phase is what I call the wake up call phase. This is when you see other magicians and they knock your socks off and make you realize you still have a lot to learn. In truth it's usually one of the older magicians that put us through that "wake up call" phase and quite often it's done by either showing us something we already know but presented in a different way. Or something that you think it original then come to find out it was done 50 years ago.

So I agree with what he's saying but I don't think it's totally an age issue. There's just a lot of teenagers with access to the technology to make them. To me it's an issue of the phase they might be going through and how easy it is to release things now days. There are always exceptions but I also agree that not many younger people have the experience. Like I said, there are exception. Just think about the fact that if you release something will you regret it later. For if I would have released those videos I made when I thought I was ready to teach I'd be regretting it very much right now.

Ron Jaxon

I don't agree that you have to reach a certain age to 'qualify' as being creative. I've seen great things from young & old magi's, and have seen utter nonsense by both young & old as well. Sure, to have things audience tested, you need experience. But by the same token, what one person views as garbage, another might see as a terrific effect.

I think that the problem comes in with the 'latest and greatest' mentality. Why does one have to buy everything that comes on the market? If you have your working act & routines going, why buy ten new things every week? If you see an ad for a new street levitation, don't you say to yourself, 'I already have 6 of them, do I really need another one?' regardless of whether the author is aged 10 or 70?

Would I go to a 16 year old's lecture? Doubt it. If I see him perform some of his material, and I can see how it might fit into my act, I'll reconsider and give it a shot. I firmly believe creativity is NOT something that necessarily comes with age or experience.

The best example of a youngster being creative is Jordan Cotler. His Point Blank deck is simply awesome. He was 13 when he came up with it. When I saw Michael Ammar do it, I could immediately see its potential in my work, and I do it all the time. Now wouldn't it have been foolish of me to dismiss it simply because of the authors age?

An exception to the rule. Not the rule. Easy to find a few cases as such. Does it justify the other 99%?

As the old maxim has it, you need find only one white crow to disprove the rule that all crows are black.

I agree that it is an exception to the rule. No doubt about that. But the fact that such an exception does exist is what I'm trying to highlight. Does it justify the other 99%? I'm not sure about that, but what I do know is that if you simply 'blocked' 100% out, you would never find that 1%.

No one is trying to block out anything, as far as I can tell.

This is, IMHO, about how information should be spread, not about who should spread it.

Young people are enthusiastic and creative, and no one wants to stop that. The question here is how they should spread their information. Should they go on the lecture circuit? Should they post YouTube tutorials?

I think they should go to a mentor, and say, "hey, look what I've got". Their mentor might say, "hey, that's darn good, maybe you should sell it." Then everything is cool.

(Or to use my personal phrase, a mixture of German and English: Alles Copacetic.)

So do I want that brilliant idea from that 15 year old to get lost into oblivion just because he or she is still a kid? No. But I don't think that kid should start doing an Al Gore kind of thing, either.

To be fair the same rules should apply to all ages. But Special rules should apply to anyone with ginger hair, since they are obviously a danger to society.

That's right. Blame it on Ginger.