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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Hybrid stack? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Andy Moss
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I am looking for advice and guidance as to the advantages and disadvantages of the following approach to devising a stack.The cards are arranged in Richard Osterlind's B.C.S cylical stack order.This means of course that the stack is then ready to perform mind reading style effects (card calling and test condition card trick being my current favourites)I generally use the card case peak or the open peak where I just ribbon spread the cards in all innocence!These two peaks work best for me.Inspired by Simon Aronson's stack system I then devised my own number/letter/card association for the stack.So I now have a stack capable of an A.C.A.A.N type effect in addition to a myriad of other effects combining the strengths of the two approaches.I am now considering purchasing a colourful rainbow deck (different casino cards might work just as well?)that would then lend itself to becoming a subtle, fully examinable 'marked deck'. Then imagine what one could do with the deck.With best wishes to all of you all at the magic Café.I have been lurking on the site for so long I thought it was about time I took part in the fun!!Andy.
kosmoshiva
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The hybrid BCS/memory approach has worked wonders for me, too. Instead of a number/letter/card peg, I use a grid, which enables me to break the cycle anywhere and know which card is in, say, position 26 or wherever.
Don't forget to breathe.
Andy Moss
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Kosmoshiva,Thanks for your post. Your grid system sounds most ingenious.I hadn't thought of that.Memorising in the field of magic is so important.It takes faith and patience but -in my experience-the rewards are more than worth it.

Oh well I had better start to learn to how to instantly recognise different cards in a rainbow deck! That will keep me occupied for a while.I could use a Boris Wild marked deck but that would be too easy and I would not feel so sneaky! Also the court cards are so poorly marked (or is that just me?)

I have a draft idea for a trick. My hope is to be able to say to the spectator that I will try to force a particular card onto him or her. My idea is to false shuffle the deck using 'G.W Hunter' and 'Charlier' type shuffles. Then I will ask the spectator to cut the pack into two and choose any one of the piles eliminating the other. The spectator then cuts his choosen half into two quarters and again chooses one of them and eliminates the other (lots of scope for presentation here. I might pretend to confuse him or to playfully 'bully him' into choosing a particular pile. I might challenge him to change him mind or pretend that the pile he chooses is the pile I want him to choose!)

Then I turn my back and ask the spectator to name a number from say one to twelve. (or whatever). He then deals the cards face down onto the table from his choosen quarter or so of the cards looking at the nth card. Naturally I know what this card is even though it seems to the spectator that there is no way that I could do so! Then I tell him matter of fact what card I say that I was forcing on him. The spectator can then examine the stack to his hearts's content. Just an idea. I am sure that it is not original or anything special but it might be fun to do. With best wishes Andy.
Dennis Loomis
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You might prefer the marking system of the Demon Deck from Larry Becker. I do.

(Which is not to say I don't like Boris Wild. He's a great performer.)

Dennis Loomis
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<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
Andy Moss
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Dennis, To be honest I guess that I have lost faith that there is in existance any commercially 'marked deck' that I feel is truly examinable by a suspicious spectator (whatever people say!).I know that many magicians would say that one should generally not allow the spectator to examine the deck but I feel that with some particular card effects that it is to your advantage if you can hand out the deck with confidence.

Juicing cards or scratching my own marks might be an option but I do not feel comfortable with this. If it is just a matter of having to mark a few cards then I use nail cutters to gently angle (only noticable to my keen eye sight)the corners of the cards. With respect to a whole deck I am looking towards subtly identifiable cards such as a rainbow deck or different blue casino cards.

Would it be possible for you to describe for me (as far as you feel comfortable to do so) the nature of the markings on the Demon deck?. I know that it was designed with the Osterlind's B.C.S.in mind. How does this improve on the Boris Wild system? I am familiar with the classic 'clock' marked bicycle deck, the 'Boris Wild marked deck' and the 'Ultimate marked deck'.Does the Demon deck use a pip marking system?

With best wishes Andy.
Dennis Loomis
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To Andy,
The Demon Deck does not use a pip marking system. But I'm not comfortable saying more here.

I would NEVER pass a deck of cards out for examination. The only reason for doing so is that you admit the existance of gimmicked cards, and your performance degenerates into a challenge for them to "catch you out." And it sets a horrible precedent: if they can examine the cards they are using, then what happens when you have in your hand something that cannot be examined. Your act or show degenerates into a contest to see if the audience can trip you up. Remember, you are supposed to be an entertainer and your audience should be having fun. If that is happening and if they like you, they are not going to care particularly how your magic is done.

I guess I can share this: I don't use the B.C.S. system. The deck is double marked. One mark reveals the card you are looking at, and a mark in a different location reveals the second card down. I don't see the reason for that: if you stack the deck in B.C.S. (or any stack you know) then if you know the top card of the deck, you also "know" the second card. So I don't use this aspect of the Demon Deck at all. Often the deck I'm working with is set in Aronson Stack, and the ability to know where you are at in the stack at all times by reading the marks is helpful for many things.

The Demon Deck is easier to read than the Boris Wild Deck, and the marks are well integrated into the design. However, given that someone is thinking of marks and given time to look at the deck carefully, there are almost no marking systems that are not going to be found. Most people would never find the marks on the 3D marking system, but the cards do not look like any other cards in the world. These were submitted to experts in several casinos and they reported back that while each card was slightly different, there was nothing they could find to give any clue to the card's identity.

Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
Andy Moss
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Thanks Dennis. That was kind and useful advice.

On reflection I agree with you about handing the cards out.I guess that one might simply let the spectator think out loud and smile with him before smoothly moving on with a joke or verbal distraction.Often part of the fun for the spectator to think aloud.It shows that the effect has had impact.In future I will never hand my cards out!

I shall look further at the Demon deck and the '3D marking system' Not using bicycle cards does not matter so much in England as so many different card types are routinely used in card games.Just as long as the cards handle well and don't look too weird!!.

A few days ago I performed a version of the 'test condition card trick' at a Tibetan monastry in Scotland. Normally I use a card case peak as I place the face down cards in the case. As Richard Osterlind advises I generally tilt/turn the cards upright in a brisk and continuous action when the pack is about three quarters or so in so that the bottom card sticks out a little out before the flap is closed).

However this time I did not have to handle the cards throughout the effect.I simply used a Boris Wild marked deck in B.C.S order and after working BACKWARDS with respect to the necessary 'calculations' I was able to work out from the markings on the top face down card what the spectator's 'thought Card' was.

Having had my back to the audience whilst the card was first 'thought of','visualised'(that gives a rationale for the thought card being cut to the face of deck) and 'lost in the deck' I simply turned around for a second or so whilst in the resonable action of asking the spectator to shuffle the deck and place the cards himself in the case.Then I obtained my glimpse. This for my mind made the effect even stronger.

I do like this effect. With a good presenattion the effect can be so strong. Once the cards are in the deck I go over what has happened stressing how the card has 'not be called out in name','not been taken from the pack, 'nor written down' (all true!) I emphaisis that spectator has only THOUGHT of the card and that I have not handled the cards not even seen any of the cards 'as my back has been turned throughout the effect'. I then state that the thought card 'does not exist in any tangible form' only existing in the spectator's mind. Then the revealing is always bewildering and even shocking.

With best wishes Andy.
kosmoshiva
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Excellent variation, Andy! As an addition for doing test conditions, how about doing it once, getting the card slightly wrong (say, like a Queen for a King), then when you get it right, the impact would be twice as hard with no hint of method ...
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edh
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Andy could you elaborate on what the effect "test condition card trick" is. Not the method but the effect. Also where might one purchase this?

thanks
edh
Magic is a vanishing art.
Andy Moss
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Hello edh. There are many variations of 'the test condition card trick' by many different names. I am not sure where the origins of the effect lie. I seem to remember a version ('mental card projection' perhaps?) by the late great Theo Annemann which used a stack system to produce a similar effect.

The version I currently use has been inspired by the effect in the book by Richard Osterlind called 'The Osterlind Breakthrough Card System; 20th Anniversary edition' available in almost any large magic website store or directly from Richard's own online shop.

Mr Osterlind has also produced the famous 'mind mysteries' DVD series. I have the book but not the DVD's. 'Test condition card trick' may (I don't know for sure) also be on the DVD volume 2.If not try the book.

I hope this helps. With best wishes Andy.
Andy Moss
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Edh. just as I finished posting my above post I saw another posting that might be of help to you located on the same forum. See Tim David's posting of the 16th October titled 'Annemann's test condition effect'. Now if I remember Annemann's version correctly the reason why I adapted the effect for my own use was that I was unhappy with the possibility that in a real performing situation the cards might be over shuffled or even dropped by the spectator. Why use a version that does not work 100% of the time when there are other versions available that are at least as strong. However having said that Theo Annemann was the greatest! Best wishes Andy.
edh
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Andy, so the BCS version of this effect is not 100% reliable?

Thanks for the information I appreciate it.

edh
Magic is a vanishing art.
edh
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Nevermind I found it. thanks Andy.
Magic is a vanishing art.
Andy Moss
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Edh. My apologies for having confused you. I recommend the Osterlind BCS version of the effect. My methodology is simply a variation of this and no more. This is 100% reliable.Andy.
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