I seriously doubt that an advertisement driven forum would create a special place for digs at advertisers. Especially when said forum may even be selling ad space to one of the accused offenders.

However, the real issue is this: Magicians are hypocrites.

That's pretty simple, and undeniably difficult to swallow, but pay attenti0n to every "moral/ethical" issue. And imagine what would happen if we didn't purchase from a company that didn't uphold our personal morality.... Where you gonna buy your groceries?

We condemn one man for knock offs, and ignore another(Or worse laud them). The reason? One is unknown or generally disliked, one is not. I believe Marlo was accused of this.... Have we decided not to buy Marlo's books?

No, we can't really get too fired up about MM, we have too many skeletons in our own closets.

It's the same with exposure.

Regardless, Individually we can make the decision to buy from creators. Collectively we are in trouble. Welcome to the whole world

Posted: Dec 18, 2007 6:09pm
Of course, I could be wrong.

First we would have to decide when an effect was in the public domain. There seems to be many differing opinions on this ranging from Never in the lifetime of the magician or any of his heirs to adopting the conventions of the rest of the world and allowing an inventor of a magic effect to have and exclusivity of say 20 years.
After that we then would have to determine the points of difference. How close to an original effect does another one have to be to be infringing on the originators material. If something looks the same to the spectator but its mechanics are different is this an infringement?
There are many other things to take into consideration as well and I doubt if we could ever come to a reasonable consensus for a standard to determine if something is a rip off or not

No need to buy from MM either. Or to buy from anyone who sells MM merchandise. Or to teach those who buy MM merchandise or who accept ads from MM. Simple as that. Unless you are in a desperate "saw like" situation you have alternatives and it's really up to you to make better choices.

What you do with the skeletons in your closet is up to you. Though it would be considerate if you left your skeletons in your own closet and did not spend much time discussing the skeletons in other's closets unless asked specifically.

Then perhaps we should not be too hypocritical and speak of the contents of MM's closet? Or we should clean ours first. Especially if we are going to "out" all the offenders.

We do not have to buy anything. We choose to. And as MM is making money, our choice is obvious.

However, as you pointed out (And as I pointed out) individually we can do the right thing. Or not.... What do I care.

Edit: As an aside, I choose to not buy Magic Makers stuff, but that's easy for me, as I rarely buy anything from magic shops, and even then it's a Book or DVD (From the creator, if possible, from an authorized source if not)

Well if you are out selling other people's tricks without permission then that might be hypocritical of you to complain about MM's business.

But if you are sure about an item like what happened with the linking lifesavers or Bob Kohler's U3F routine - then go ahead and speak up. It's only ethical to let folks know that they can not only get second rate goods cheaply but also hurt the feelings of the inventors of the tricks - twice the hurt for half the price - what a bargain!

Or if you want to help others be attentive to getting things from the inventors - also good to speak up when you see Lee Asher's trick sold by others without his permission and say so.

Just imagine you had a trick for sale and sombody else started selling it... what would you want others to do if they knew?

Jonathan, I'm not sure exactly where we are arguing here. I am not sure you are reading all of my posts, and possibly missing some of your own.

If I say that we have a lot of closet cleaning to do before we can insist everyone else clean their closet. Then you say that I should worry about my own closet (Because no one else's closet is my business), while criticizing MM's house.... We simply should not criticize anyone's.

Or we should criticize every ones. Who buys MM's stuff? Just kids? Who by association is as guilty as MM? Who gets hurt by knock offs? Is MM the only culprit? Who puts out magic so indiscriminately that magicians feel they deserve to get it, are owed it? Who is really responsible for the predicament we are in?

Burn Magic Makers to the ground, Bankrupt the owner. Tar and feather him and run him out of town. Fine, someone else will take his place. In fact, I believe you'll find that there are others already there.

I agree that MM is bad! I agree something should be done. I believe we should look farther than just the face on the wanted poster. Since I believe we won't, I do not believe we will be able to accomplish anything.

There are plenty of sentences there that can be quoted and argued with, you are welcome in advance.

I believe you can. And I believe it helps others when you speak up about problems. And I believe things can and will get better by doing so.

Honda or Toyota? does it matter? A car is a car to many people. and in the world of magic your audience doesn't care. Unless its stealing do what you can afford. But then again, who am I to talk? doh!

I think the discussion matters, but I think the answer will be too aggressive for anyone in the business to accept.

Or we can hope for a more educated breed of magician..... I hope we can Jonathan.

Josh, the way I see it is this. There are magicians who claim to be business men then there are business men who claim to be magicins. If one is more business than magic then they will do what's right for them, and vis-a-vis.

You can't blame someone for trying to make an honest buck. there's a market for everyone. If you think of these guys as car dealers and take magic out of the equation you will see that no one is doing anything wrong. Now imagine car dealerships and replace car with magic. If you want the cadillac of magic go to that dealership, if you can't afford that go to the yugo magic dealership, if that's too cheap, go to magic nissan or magic toyota

Dammit Loubard! I was playing Devils Advocate, now I'm all messed up...

Did you know that air conditioning was patented? It was in fact. Now let's say every car manufacturer just took the idea. Would that be right?

It's not so much a car brand issue as a car parts issue. The "Car" is magic. The things that make up the magic is the parts.

Every car has certain parts that are needed to make it work, however each car company has certain special things that they do to the car that makes it different.

Selling items at a lesser cost is capitalism at it's finest (Although I still feel detrimental to magic, but that's for another time). Taking another's idea without remuneration or even permission is wrong in any industry. However, if truth be told omnipresent.

Like I said earlier: Welcome to the whole world.

All I can say is that if you believe a magic manufacturer isn't worth the value he places on his effects, do not complain when your boss does not believe you are worth the value you place on yourself. They deserve to get paid like you do. I am not insulting you C. Loubard, this is a blanket statement.

Josh, I never took it as an insult and I am not trying to insult you. I am just an outside observer looking in. I'm not a magician so my views are not clouded by emotions. I'm not saying yours are, it is a blanket statement.

When I go shopping to the grocery store, for instance, I buy what suits my pocket. many times, I may drive to the 99 cent store and buy all of my canned goods. Why? because value is perceived and I don't want to pay say 3 dollars for a can of spaghettios. Instead I go to the 99 cent store and buy the can for 99 cents, or an equivalent. Or why buy brand X when brand Y is the same, as far as I can tell, and it is cheaper.

We all do it all the time.

There is one "magic" shop keep I know who I have the utmost respect for. Why? because he's honest to his patrons. If someone is looking at a product, he might suggest choosing X instead of Z because it is cheaper. The methodology is the same the construction is the same but the price is reduced. So, why carry both? well, there are those who will only go for the Cadillac because they can, but others may not because they can't. it is a win win for the shop keep. the customer is happy, the shop is happy, the distributor is happy, and the creator, well perhaps they should lower their price to keep up with the competition.

it all comes down to perception of value.

With every effect that is open to everyone (Like cups, shells, rough and smooth decks etc.) I would agree regarding ethics. I think the issue is based on the difference between a original effect I just created, and as soon as it hits the market a company takes the exact same thing, makes it and sells it.

If you put a book out, and then it is copied and printed immediately by unauthorized sources.... that's bad. But its illegal with books because they have a copyright.

I will say there is nearly always a difference in quality between cheaper shells and more expensive ones. But ethically, there isn't an issue.

The only fix here is for creators to keep their stuff close to the vest. Jonathan will tell you that even showing it to friends is dangerous. Don't create, or let it out. It won't be stolen. It's the only fool proof way. But there is no reason to create then either. Alas.

Magic Makers have been the center of controversy forever now. Honest product reviews for others to read, along with any pertinent history on a particular effect will help those unaware understand about the magic produced. This will help educate new people to the craft about why some of the items are wrong.

But Magic Makers isn't the only one that has attacked for their practices, what I'm about to type is not a tongue in cheek and is not pointing a finger, but plain cold fact that is backed up by not only history, but by engineering documents and Internet data.

Jim Riser has accused RNT II of ripping him off, while in reality Mr. Riser has been using our designs for years now, even after I had requested he stopped. The saddles of his cups are that of the Don Alan design. Mr. Riser did not design this and the company has asked him to stop. I posted pictures of our SBL stubby cup 1 year prior to releasing it. Many said that the cup pictured looked like the Riser Stubby cup, when in actuality the cup was a short version of the Don Alan cup without the dress lines, the production date and invoice date for that particular cup, 1974, it's documented in St. Louis.
Mr. Risers attack was that of name calling, slander and talking about my mother, whom he knows nothing about, this is the type of person who uses his name to hide his ways of swaying the public. The thing is I get more phone calls from people who say his posts make them sick. Great craftsman or not, our design was taken without permission and continued use the same.

Since Mr. Riser thinks that he can just take what he wants and use it. Mr. Riser has a post stating that RNT II would tool up and start making his cup designs. I have nothing to hide, but what Mr. Riser didn't tell you is the entire contents of the
email. I requested that he cease the slander and using the Don Alan style saddle, if he did not I would tool up and start using all the cups designs. This to me is using Products as weapons or the wolf attacking the wolves. Why should Jim Riser be allowed to continue to use our design(s) and nothing be done or said about it because people are afraid of being on his black list. Or because he is the GREAT JIM RISER.

So as long as Jim uses our designs freely and calls them his own, we will release similar products as restitution to the use of our designs against our wished.

Anyone else that wishes to copy others, that does have original designs, this could be you, it's just unfortunate there is no way to attack companies like Magic Makers in the is fashion, hard to use poorly made products as weapons against the company that makes them.

Morals and ethics is an issue that runs from individual to individual and each must live with their own. But I find that a lot of people, like Josh said, are willing to accept some and deny others. My choice of tooling up against Jim Riser is something
I can live with as he continues to use our design. Would I make Bob Kohler's 3 Fly or Todd Lassen's, no absolutely not.

Again, there is no finger pointing in this post, I have stayed to fact which is all supported on both the RNT II site and Riser's.
So I have stayed within the confines of the Café's TOS and Rules. Beware of companies like MM that just take great items and make them cheaply and be very aware of craftsman that try to use unsupported slander and they're name to justify their own cover ups.



Here is another perfect example of our saddle being used in Mr. Risers latest release that was posted today. It it quite clear of the copy of our saddle design.

http://www.jamesriser.com/Magic/JamesRiserMagic.html

How does Jim or anyone else justify the use of our design? There is nothing that separates his actions from that of the tactics of companies like MM.

Jake

Looks like we'll have to plan mini traditionals soon.

I agree Jake the new Riser Mini Traditional Cups look like they have a RNT II Don Alan saddle on them.

Jeff

oh I hope I am worthy...yawn...

I really try to like the guy, but I just cant.

-lint

Either can I since somehow he figures that he should talk about my mother as well. Scour the RNT II site, I don't demean anyone nor does the company and I certainly don't try to condone my actions by talking about peoples Mom.

I don't ever recall seeing any other site in Magic History resorting to these kind of slanderous tactics.

I have read Mr Riser's "Musings" at his web site and I find it outrageous that he comments on Jake's Mother.
Surely there is no need for this.

I have made several posts here about pirating myself and am not in favor of it. Let me throw a wrench in here. I was talking to a friend of mine who works for Dale's Winning Edge Golf. He was complaining about the copies being sold and the internet. By way of example, he sells a Driver for $499.00 and you can buy a copy for $99.00. He told me it was killing their business. If you play golf, how many clubs if any have you bought that were knock-offs? A full set of Callaway's will cost $3300.00 compared to knocked off set for less than $500. Less than 1% of the public even cares. If people only bought Designer Clothes, most everyone would be naked. This Christmas got me thinking about something that I really don't necessarily agree with, but almost everything made or created is duplicated in some form or fashion with no reference to the originator. No royalties are paid! Copier's, computer's, TV's, camera's, printer's, clothes, etc., and the list goes on. Manuscripts are protected by copyright, and certain products can be protected by patents. But patents are expensive and really serve no purpose when you think about it. Example: Xerox had its patent for years but there were still copiers on the market. We talk about stealing patter but speakers do it everyday. So much for copyright. In fact, they even attempt to do magic. Manufacturers even put out tricks without any reference to its history. I think you see my point. I feel the problem lies that in our profession, we want to guard which we believe is ours and rightly so. If Nike, Callaway, Power-Bilt, IBM, Gatorade, Apple, Ford, and a host of others can't stop it, we probably can't either unless everyone agrees not to buy the knocked-off products. Life is not FAIR and its does not mean we should just lay down and do nothing. To make a change, we must educate those coming and going as to why we as magicians must have ethics. Either you eat better or sleep better.

Steve

Try this http://www.magicfakers.blogspot.com/