I have been working on Geoff Latta's Sun/Moon routine for about a year or for as long as the NY Coin Men DVD has been out. Usually practice the routine 5 to 10 times a day. I think it's Beautiful.Have tried it on a couple of people and it appears to screem Gafted Coins. I get the gasps and the open mouths from my captive audience but when finished it's "Let me see the coins" that's after they have been examined just before the effect! Naturally I Flying shuttle them in but what a pain! Otherwise in there mind "It could only be done with some kind of gimmicked coins" At least there is a slight chanch that it will remain in there thoughts as an unsolved mystery. I have also thrown in Rogers Klause's great "Soleil Et Lune" My thinking was to throw the heat on the other coin. Any thoughts on how to avoid the "the gimmicked coins" sendrome?

Surround the effect with others [obviously non-gimmicked] using the same coins. I know, not so simple...

Easy really my friend. simply do somthing else as a kicker to distract. it was not my idea but for example for ninja coin orutine I do a stone purse ending. or use some total vanishes to get rid of the coins ect ect

I used to love watching Pete Peterson do this.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander

Thanks, I think I'll try the stone purse idea One astonishment after another tends to overload one's thoughts. I might try to do the routine in front of more than one person. People don't tend to speak up as readely in groups as they do one on one. They do try to reason how it could happen but not voice their opinion.It is really a thing of beauty when done properly. The gasps and befuddlement on their faces as the routine unfolds is worth the effort.

While I like the routine too, it has some odd moments--not odd for Geoff, but odd for me. He always knows how to get the most out of gaffs, but that's because he handles them so beautifully--his work with the coins really make it look like real magic.

So think about how the sequences can be reworked to fit your style? I know playing with that routine has really made me come up with some fun moments in the larger context of thinking about transposition effects, esp. in trying to solve the examinibility issue at the end. My solution is to get the coins into their hands sooner than later. If you're going to do nearly perfect visual transpositions, you should be ready to do it in their hands as well.

Thanks Kainoa, Food for thought! my gaft was made by Todd L.A Morgan/Crown. Absoultely undetectable!I could probably place it in the spectators hand and provide they don't start playing with it get away with it!

Honestyly if tis a problem for you, why not just carry non gaff duplicates and switch them out in the off beat. oh you want to see them again? sure!

Joshua,

He says that he does that now, but he feels it's a pain. He's looking for an alternative.

Yep, Thanks Chad an alternative to having to ring in the Ungimicked coin.My moves
are good, no "Tells" "Windows" or "Fumbling". I guess that in there minds it the only rational explanation for an apparant miracle.

M.
There are two possibilities fr the reason they want to see the coins:
1. the routine is set up so that there is only one possible solution, gaffs. If this is the case you could build some "outs" in the performence or move on to another effect (aka stone purse from above, or vanish)
2. There is some tell in your body language that you "won't" show these coins. This could be anything from treating the coins different to a more tense performance. The only way to overcome this is to pay attention to your performance. Watch Latta in other routines compared to his Sun/Moon and notice how his naturalness dosen't change. It is possible to get the gimmick in their hands (Tommy wonder does it a number of times in his "Socked Coins") This shows the spec that the coin is unimportant and he/she will want to see the othe coins. This is only recommended after sudy though.

Would you describe how you perform this routine?

Just taking out two strange coins, asking folks to watch them jump around and then dumping them in their hands as you puff up your chest expecting them to admire you for being clever might not work for everybody.

Whats interesting to me is that you mention rogers routine, but in his routine he has a few moments of "somthing" that look suspesious on purpose.

also I have never seen you perform so I can't know but maybe you have more "tells" then you think?

I agree with jon in what he is saying, I never have had this problem with such routines really, so I have to wonder what exacly is making them so suspicious of the gaff.... I did in fact have a problem once with justin millars tri-une, even tho the coins are examined at the start someone mentioned the next day that there must have been some "hollow coin" for that to be possiable. some people don't beleive in the "too perfect rule" I do however and it might be showing for you now.

the only thing I'm not clear about is whats wrong with switching them? or changing them to somthing else to move thier thoughts along? the heart of the problem is you are leaving your audience's minds nowhere to go execpt for the real method

I use some of Geoff's lines and as you well know that if your practice a routine enough it becomes automatic leaving you to play with your patter and develope the routine to what fits your personality. I don't treat the routine as" Hey watch me while I try to fool you with my slight of hand".Our kind of Magic done well is an art form and should be treated as such.Entertaining and mystifying.

M.Riggs, for those of us who don't know Geoff and so can't see anyone else being him - we need some more information from you about HOW you perform the trick. How do you engage the audience, where do you put your emotional emphasis, where do the coins fit in your presentation and how much focus of attention do you place upon them... that kind of thing.

By way of contrast consider Sol Stone's copper and silver transpo where he talks about the Mayans who bury their warriors with gold to their right and silver to their left and mistakes have to be corrected by a magician...

Would you discuss a little about how you get into the routine?

Josh, I have cam-corde my routine and believe me it's like hearing your voice for the first time on tape WOW!.I remember I use to do a one ball in the hand and one ball in the pocket routine until I saw my performance on Video. Wow! what windows I had when I did the Shuttle pass! Honestly the performance of the Sun/Moon on tape looked good.Nope, I don't blink,no windows,tells,fumbeling or tighting up when doing the sleights.

Johnanthan, sure. I open with "Any Idea what in the purse"? Shake it and usually come back with a line after there responce "Well its the Sun and the Moon" "It's a specially made purse you see" "Actually it's two old coins". "Here take a look."I call them the Sun and the Moon"Why you say because the silver coin reminds me of the Sun,bright and shiney and The copper coin dark and misterious like the moon.Ect.

Okay, thanks - trying to get to the emotional context of the moment that nice coin change happens and where the audience attention/concern goes.

It's usually safer to have them see the coin change in your hand and to make the connection about what must have happened in their hand (about half a beat to one full beat - two if they are puzzled and need to be led) and THAT's when any cleanup can happen as you absentmindedly handle the coin in preparation for them to have one last look before you put the sun and moon back in the purse.

Thanks.Yes Sir. I just thought there was an easy way to avoid having to give the coins out twice.Once at the begenning of the routine and then at the end.Having to pull the purse and coin out of the pocket.Set the purse down Shuttle pass just to quell their thirst of "How the Heck is this possible" "Must be in the coins""Let me look at thoes again".

You might also consider a ploy I use for switching in... once I obtain the ungaffed coin I move the gaffed copper/silver in my case to edge grip and hand it to them that way. this of course depends on your conditions as you have to tilt your hand once you get so close, but you are in the process showing both hands empty other then the coins you are handing them with no need for a shuttle pass. if I don;t do this I still usually will not shuttle pass but either leave the gaffed coins in the pocket while retriveing the others... or retain them in classic palm droping the newly switched in coin a few inches from thier hand. I feel this droping makes the hand appear more emtpy and the other hand can be subtly showed empty cause it is.

another thing that might work is to play with thier thoughts like "i wish they where, it would be easier to do!" or follow up with somthing using thier money.

I always found the idea of borrowing a quarter and switching in a gaffed querter to be humorous in the context of using borrowed money to quell thoughts