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Ron Reid
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Yes, a second Amen to that, James. Thanks for the wonderful post.

Your brother in Christ,

Ron
dbearden
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I agree with Eric's statement, "but it is (in my humble, but accurate opinion) OUR responsibility to rightly divide the Word, and present our ministry with care and consideration to those for whom we perform." That should go without saying. That should be first and foremost. As ministers of the gospel, we are held accountable for what we say and do in presenting the gospel, and should be done in a worthy manner.
David
mrtricky
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David - key word is "should". That "should" go without saying. However - and I had to learn this lesson many years ago myself... it is all too often overlooked, and the performer (even those who are called by God to minister) leans heavily upon the endorsement of the pastor (and/or board), and not enough on the authority of the Word.

It is as though such a person arrives at the church with the mentality that "you (the congregation) should embrace me, because I was vetted by the staff". In my opinion - this is dangerous thinking, and raises the potential for preaching from the wrong authority.

I am speaking of ministry here - having absolutely nothing to do with "entertaining". If we minister from a wrong perspective, one must ask, "how much more" could we see accomplished for the Kingdom if all the pieces were in their right places?

- Eric
dbearden
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I have had the opportunity to see a few that have done as you were saying (preaching from the "wrong authority"), and it has helped me to work hard to never be that way. If one is to be going at this the right way, there are a few "givens" that should be in place, and that is definitely one of them. It would be amazing to see what could be "accomplished for the Kingdom if all the pieces were in the right place!" While there are some people (individuals and/or denominations) that may frown on gospel magic due to ignorance of what it really is, I think maybe some do so because of bad experience with folks taking that wrong approach.
God Bless,
David
theboss
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I belong to a lay church so I have an active part in both organisation of our church and public preaching/services. I am widely known as a magician within the church but rarely involve magic in the preaching of the Word. For the most part I fear I would be crowbarring an effect in for the sake of it. The only time I use it is to illustrate how easily we can be deceived. Illustrating that: rather than a third party deceiving me, I DECEIVE MYSELF! Thing of it this way... a truly gifted magician will not try and fool you, he will simply lay out the ingredients for you to fool yourself. As the apostle James says.. "but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed".

Anyway, Im fed up with trying to explain to some that doing magic does not make me a tool of the devil (NB: Especially as I do not beleive in a supernatural devil - see rest of James 1!

If anyone has some ideas of how I can use magic more please PM me

Love in the Lord

James Brown
Terry Owens
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I'm sure the devil (Lucifer) is happy with you James...Trust me, he's very real.
theboss
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That is a subject which we could have a very long thread about!!

For starters explain James 1 which clearly states that death via sin is created by our OWN evil desires rather than a supernatural being.

This is not a fight... if I offend you I will stop now.

Love

James
theboss
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Incidentally, where in the scriptures does the word Lucifer appear? It doesn't. Satan appears (although mostly from the word adversary, which is not the definite article. Translated with a capital for no apparent reason)as does the devil (again rarely the definite article) and in the OT God is even referred to as satan (dont panic - simply adversary once again).

There is far more to this than meets the eye. Accepting modern translations without accurate reference to the Greek and Hebrew leads to dangerous misunderstandings. I am by no means professing to have it right, I am simply suggesting it requires more study than to just follow the crowd. It is ours and others salvation we are dealing with afterall!

With this in mind I thank God for Grace by which we are saved!

JB
housermagic
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A response given me by a local pastor was, "You're a Christian - AND do magic? Magic is forbidden in Scripture.". I politely advised him that "fortune-telling" is prohibited (i.e., dealing with "familiar" spirits), magic - done properly is not. The three wise men who came to Bethlehem were, in fact, three "magi". He still hasn't asked me to do a show for his church. But, my home church is open to the idea. Both churches are Southern Baptist.
Bill
Steve_Mollett
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Even divination is biblically divided between holy and forbidden forms, but that's another issue worthy of a thread of it's own, and the subject of much controversy and interpretation.
Moving on...
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
gobo
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Hi there. I'm new to the Café'. After reading this thread I thought I'd throw in my experiences in hopes it helps. I agree with the point that it depends on the church and the leadership of the church. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church. I got started in my early 20's doing magic and later gospel magic. But when I performed for church groups, it was typically to provide good family entertainment given the function. I've performed for So. Baptist, Methodist, and Covenant churches. I've yet to hear any negative comment regarding magic as evil or of the devil. So I guess I've been quite fortunate in that regard. BTW, I once performed for a pastor's dinner with their wives. I did walk-around before dinner and a 1/2 hr performance as entertainment later in the program. I finished the evening with a card trick using some volunteers using the big playing cards with a simple bible truth. It was my finale and it got a standing O. I was shocked by the response, but also very pleased.
gobo
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Hi there. I'm new to the Café'. After reading this thread I thought I'd throw in my experiences in hopes it helps. I agree with the point that it depends on the church and the leadership of the church. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church. I got started in my early 20's doing magic and later gospel magic. But when I performed for church groups, it was typically to provide good family entertainment given the function. I've performed for So. Baptist, Methodist, and Covenant churches. I've yet to hear any negative comment regarding magic as evil or of the devil. So I guess I've been quite fortunate in that regard. BTW, I once performed for a pastor's dinner with their wives. I did walk-around before dinner and a 1/2 hr performance as entertainment later in the program. I finished the evening with a card trick using some volunteers using the big playing cards with a simple bible truth. It was my finale and it got a standing O. I was shocked by the response, but also very pleased.
Terry Owens
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To the Boss, we can't go off topic here or else we will be in violation of the Café's rules...

I, like gobo, have really never encountered any opposition (until a few months ago in my own congregation...fortunately I was able to teach my people what the Word really says about the subject.) and I've been doing this for a long time 27 years of ministry.

Here's something you might want to consider, I never bill myself as a magician when working with Churches. I'm an evangelist and the tool I use to share the message is magic, but I don't even tell them that unless they ask for specifics.

Even secular performers would possibly do well by leaving the word magician off their promotional material. I had a consultant work with me and he said to remove the word magician from my promotional material and promote myself as an entertainer. He said I will make better money that way. Anybody can do a magic trick, but not everyone can entertain. That is what begins to seperate those who do tricks and those who entertain...and the same goes with doing "Gospel Magic" anyone can try to put a message onto a trick, but does it minister to those who are watching you. When you're doing Gospel magic as a ministry, ministry is the number one priority during the service, not magic. Ministry is a higher calling then any Las Vegas performer ever had. You're making a difference in the lives of people...

I read a thread on the Café about a comment that Jay Marshall had said while attending the FCM convention as a guest...it was along the lines of if we really believe the importance of the message, why do we package it so poorly (refering to Gospel magic). That's why I've spent over $7,000 this year upgrading my program, I've got some great stuff and in my not so humble opinion, I think I do a pretty good secular show too. But when I do my programs, the message is not losed in poor looking equipment that looks cheap. Pastors know I cared enough about ministering to their church that I went out of my way to make it an event that they are proud to host and people are excited to attend. But I give all the glory to God because without His touch on my life, it's all meaningless. Booking 2 years in advance is no small feat, but it comes from having a ministry perspective, not a magic perspective when it comes to churches.
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2007-12-01 16:12, Terry Owens wrote:

I read a thread on the Café about a comment that Jay Marshall had said while attending the FCM convention as a guest...it was along the lines of if we really believe the importance of the message, why do we package it so poorly (refering to Gospel magic).


Hi Terry:

Jay said that to me back in the mid 80's. As you stated, I have posted about it once or twice! Makes you think!

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Greaturtle
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I'm new here too and I hope I don't wear out my welcome by commenting too soon, but I, too, have run into people who initially think magic is something sinister. The problem, as I see it, is mostly one of education and FCM's International web site has an excellent article about this topic that should go a long way to enlightening folks.

In the meantime, I have what is probably a stupid question...if the churches have a problem with magic, have you considered taking it to the streets? After all, that's where you will find most unsaved folks anyway. Most of the folks warming the pews have heard the gospel many times already. It's those out on the street who need to hear it and magic is a great way to draw a crowd. (That's why I'm getting involved with it.) Just a thought.
Terry Owens
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That is a very good thought Greaturtle...there are some who's source of income is performing or doing evangelistic events...

I'm of the opinion that is where most evangelism and ministry should take place, outside of the churches four walls.

In my case, I am in full time ministry and I'm brought into churches for Evangelistic events and God has blessed me with great results in our efforts. But if God is calling us to use magic as an evangelistic too, there is nothing wrong creating some opportunities of your own.

Keep the faith!
Greaturtle
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This is undoubtedly off topic (and for that I apologize), but is there some way I can change my user name to my own name without having to reregister? Also, how do you request to be notified when replies are posted? I thought I did it before, but I'm not finding a check box this time. (I'm not very experienced with forums yet.)
Terry Owens
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Go to the Magic Café tech area help and put in a request, it's towards the top when you first come in...I hope that helps.
Joshua Barrett
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Quote:
On 2007-12-01 10:11, theboss wrote:
Incidentally, where in the scriptures does the word Lucifer appear? It doesn't. Satan appears (although mostly from the word adversary, which is not the definite article. Translated with a capital for no apparent reason)as does the devil (again rarely the definite article) and in the OT God is even referred to as satan (dont panic - simply adversary once again).

There is far more to this than meets the eye. Accepting modern translations without accurate reference to the Greek and Hebrew leads to dangerous misunderstandings. I am by no means professing to have it right, I am simply suggesting it requires more study than to just follow the crowd. It is ours and others salvation we are dealing with afterall!

With this in mind I thank God for Grace by which we are saved!

JB


that's very interesting james, do you know how this translates to the tempation of christ, it is often depicted as satan telling jesus to do those things. id love to have further discussion here or via PM on this

on a off note, it always makes me feel good to see that many magicians that I look up to are also followers of christ
Steven Conner
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Quote:
On 2007-12-01 10:11, theboss wrote:
Incidentally, where in the scriptures does the word Lucifer appear? It doesn't. Satan appears (although mostly from the word adversary, which is not the definite article. Translated with a capital for no apparent reason)as does the devil (again rarely the definite article) and in the OT God is even referred to as satan (dont panic - simply adversary once again).

There is far more to this than meets the eye. Accepting modern translations without accurate reference to the Greek and Hebrew leads to dangerous misunderstandings. I am by no means professing to have it right, I am simply suggesting it requires more study than to just follow the crowd. It is ours and others salvation we are dealing with afterall!

With this in mind I thank God for Grace by which we are saved!

JB


Is 14:12
"The New York Papers," Mark Twain once said,"have long known that no large question is ever really settled until I have been consulted; it is the way they feel about it, and they show it by always sending to me when they get uneasy. "
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