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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricks & Effects » » Mental Frisbee - Nathan Kranzo (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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magicelam
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I can't wait too.. and Randi, I like the new terms.
Mike
Robert M
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Quote:
On 2007-11-21 16:08, JTW wrote:
Brad, I understand your points about some people just looking to get something for free. That being said

You say that a seller (you used the word creator) owes his potential customer nothing? Do you really believe that?

As stated previously the consumer has the ultimate power, they have the money. A wise consumer should ask questions before buying right? Not to do so would be foolish wouldn't you agree?.

If a seller isn't willing to answer questions from consumers then OBVIOUSLY the consumer should move on and that seller will quickly leave the marketplace due to lack of consumers.

And there is your answer isn't it?

A seller OWES a potential customer a reasonable explanantion of what a product is to have any buyers.

To me it is a shared responsibility by BOTH parties. The customer has to ask questions AND the seller must be willing to answer them if he wants to sell.

Nathan is a class guy and he has listened to the marketplace.

They asked for a better description- he gave them one

They asked more questions- he is willing to answer all privately, a sales call of sorts, good move there.

He now offers a money back guarantee- GREAT MOVE

So you see Brad the marketplace works.

The burden to sell is (by definition) on the seller not the buyer.

The other thing you missed is that we do buy methods. The creator has the obligation to research his method before bringing it to the marketplace wouldn't you agree? Why is that? If a creator brought something to the marketplace as new and it was similiar someone else's what recommendation would you give it in a review? Would you expose the method to illustrate your point? Oh wait you already did that. So I guess methods really aren't important to you. Moot point.

The truth Brad is that our marketplace is filled with methods, new moves and new applications. The creator has ALL the responsibility to insure the product is good.


I agree.

Robert
truthteller
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JTW,

The seller owes you the consumer nothing. I will give you an example:

"Here is an item from my professional show. I use it as an opener. I am not willing to divulge the effect as what you are buying the the presentation and the idea of a clever revelation. To describe it is to give away that which you are paying for. I know that if I were to describe the effect, many people would steal it and use it without paying for it. The method is solid, but a competent magician could replicate it if they wanted to."

Would you buy this product?

Maybe, maybe not. The seller realizes he will limit his sales because of this campaign and does not mind. In fact, he wants to keep the idea exclusive. The cost, by the way, is $100.

Does the seller owe you anything more than that?

No. He doesn't. YOU can use that information and decide. If you do not feel that is enough information, walk away.

But you won't. Why? Maybe it's because you feel that you might miss out on something. Deep down you crave knowing what it is. You can't stand that there may be something out there that you don't get a crack at.

OR maybe you're the kind of person who wants to know, wants to use, but feels that if you can figure it out on your own you can use it. If you can sleuth out the answer, you can save some money.

So, you come online and badger owners and creators until a half wit with a grade school education can read a thread and figure out exactly what they are buying.

Well, some people don't want that to happen to their work - and that should be THEIR call, not yours.

So I support any creator that chooses to dictate the terms of his or her own sales. It is their product and they have the right to distribute it as they see fit.

If people do not buy, then the creator and the creator alone has to answer to those choices. But if they are willing to take that risk, then the rest of us should stop whining and let them.

And, for the record, the hypothetical in the opening wasn't. It was a real ad (paraphrased) from an item sold a few years back. Only a handful of copies were to be released, and no additional information was provided - privately or otherwise.

The seller sold out of his desired number and several people had an exclusive item that was a great opener and a fabulous idea that would have been ripped off if the effect had been described.

Sometimes we are buying a new method. Sometimes we are not. Few people on this board seem to recognize the difference. But that makes sense. Most are amateurs who are more concerned with their own amusement than "selling" a amgical experience to strangers.

But to you other point, if someone claims a method is brand new, or something that it isn't (completely impromptu, for example), then yes those claims deserve to be scrutinized. But Nathan has made none of those claims. Nor did the seller of the item I have referenced. Sometimes we are buying something different from a method. And in those cases, different expectations and needs come into play.

So, the market DOES work. It DID work. And if people stand up for what's best for their own work, it will continue to work.

Magic is more than methods. But as long as it is treated as such, we will continue to offer meaningless puzzles that fail to intrigue and resonate with our audiences.

Magic is more than a commodity. But as long as it is treated as such, it will remain such.
mindhunter
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Quote:
On 2007-11-18 23:05, Turk wrote:
Wow!! Can't get any fairer than that!! Way to go, Nathan!!

Mike

(P.S.Bryn Reynolds (mindhunter) has a similar unconditional guarantee available (but to all buyers and, I think, on everything he sells). I have found that when a person trusts a person to do the right thing, most people bend over backwards to do the right thing and to not appear to be taking advantage of the other person's good faith and generosity.)


Thanks, Mike. Yes, each and every effect....unconditional guarantee. And I am most humbly glad to say that it has almost never been taken advantage of.

From a brief read of this post it is nice to see Nathan seems to be offering this on his new effect.

I post the following as not the SELLER of mentalism effects, but as a purchaser sometimes ( and I realize it will open up some discussion...which I WELCOME:)

Why WOULDN"T one offering effects to this community offer such a guarantee?
There is NO reason NOT to...almost every other consumer product in the country does...

Yes, I realize that we are selling, to some degree, just "secrets" (intellectual property) and there are those that will take that and run and request their money back. (Although I don't read a novel and then return it...)
I like to think from my great experiences selling mentalism those are cases that are extemely rare...if a few happen then it was a THOUGHT that got ripped off...oh well.

Magic/Mentalism creators also offer PRODUCTS, along with some ideas for using this product. If someone does not think it worthy then they return that PRODUCT (yes, still perhaps retaining the "idea"....again, I like to think very rare instances....I blindly trust 99.98% of those in this field)

In either case, why would one release an effect without a guarantee that they were not SURE (for MOST instances) would be a big hit? They would not unless they had performed it MANY times and it went over well, were confident in the quality of the gimmick (or idea) and were willing to trust the honestly of the FEW that may return it even though they loved the idea, but want their money back, and will now make it up themselves.

Those of us without a huge, long-term reputation should provide one....not be REQUIRED to (I a a huge fan of Caveat Emptor in most cases) but we SHOULD...

The giants in the field...well, you know what you are getting with their offerings one way or the other....

Perhaps a confusing analogy, but it makes sense to ME:
When I buy a Richard Osterlind DVD I KNOW it will be good, as is the case when I buy a gallon of fresh milk.
If the milk is spoiled then the vendor may EXCHANGE it, not refund my money, because the INDIVIDUAL gallon of milk is tainted...fair.
If the DVD will not PLAY on my DVD player, then I would expect a new DVD, not a refund....

I knew the TASTE OF MILK when I signed on to purchase......

come on, guys!...I offer a challenge (that I know will be met with swords....lol)
Lets all of us with less than 20 years experience in selling mentalism offer such a guarantee...

I again humbly submit that your sales will INCREASE if you do.....

Thanks, and look forward to the debate,
Bryn
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Please read the many great reviews here at the Cafe:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=253272&forum=15

"THE LOGAR SCROLLS" eBook is also now available ($30)
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=464100&forum=303&70

SPECIAL: "LOGAR" & "SAFWAN PAPERS" Combo Deal: $50

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Bryn
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JTW
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Brad I think you are confused. If a creator truly wants to sell a product they will make every effort to connect with the customer.

I agree with you though that a creator should not describe the effect and give away the very thing they are selling. However if a customer asks a question that can be answered WITHOUT giving anything away, then that seller (if they truly have something to sell and aren't out to scam) is obligated to do so. Not to would alienate the customers and thus bring to an end their sales efforts.

As for leaving it up to the creator to decide how he wants to sell...that is looking at the marketplace in a vacuum. It doesn't work and you know it doesn't. The consumer dictates how things are sold. The seller only looks for different ways to connect to the consumer.


In your example I would have contacted the creator, if they supplied the information I needed, then yes I may have bought it. If they did not, then no I probably wouldn't have.

Your question:
"The seller realizes he will limit his sales because of this campaign and does not mind. In fact, he wants to keep the idea exclusive. The cost, by the way, is $100.

Does the seller owe you anything more than that?"

If he wants my money then yes he does. Your confusing exclusivity and actually selling something. A price tag or marketing techniques (ie perception of value etc.) keep a thing exclusive, refusing to answer questions doesn't. Unless you consider not selling anything as keeping something exclusive. I don't- I consider that a poor product or an example of the marketplace not being ready for the product (Apple's tablet pc, the Newton, is a good example of the latter).

What you refuse to admit is that a seller, one that truly has something of value that puts a product on the market DOES have an obligation to the consumer. Because without consumers there are no sellers.
Markymark
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But I'm always being told [by dealers in their ads] that magic is different.
You are paying for the secret.
The big difference for me though [and I know it's been said before] is the name.
If something is from the working act of 'Nathan Kranzo' or 'Brad Henderson' then
very little information is needed.It's the reputation these guys have that does
most of the selling.What price is a great script worth?
''In memory of a once fluid man,crammed and distorted by the classical mess'' -Bruce Lee
randirain
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Quote:
What you refuse to admit is that a seller, one that truly has something of value that puts a product on the market DOES have an obligation to the consumer. Because without consumers there are no sellers.

That's not true.
There doesn't have to be a buyer for there to be a seller.
I am sure there are plenty of sellers who have no buyers.
At least there should be, with all the junk out there.
You can go put something on ebay, and that makes you a seller if someone buys it or not.

What it seems that others are refusing to admit is that there is no law or rule that says a seller has any obligation to give any specifics about their product.
Somebody can just say, "I have a product for sale" and that's it if they want to.
That's the only point we are trying to make.... that's all.
Whether that's right or wrong, or good or bad, isn't the point being made.

Randi
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Steve Hook
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This whole conversation has been amusingly absurd.

Any timid buyer can simply wait for the reviews.

Period.
Like Bonnie Raitt said, "I miss Little Feat more than I miss being 8 years old." Long live Lowell and Richie!
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At some point, a seller must ask himself, "How much can I allow into the description without giving away too high a percentage of the value of the trick and/or the routine?"
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
truthteller
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JTW,

The issue is with the concept of "obligation." If you and I were in a relationship which forced us to do business, then yes there are obligations. But we are not. I am not required to sell, and you are not required to buy. Because of that neither is beholden to the other.

Now, if you want to sell large numbers of an item, or want to do so easily, then it is probably to your advantage to follow the practices you advocate.

But simply because that is the common or easy path does not mean that it is the best path - for an individual seller or maybe even the entire art. Your stance treats these items as commodities - but there is more to them than that. These are ideas and ideas have value in our field when they are exclusive. Some people appreciate that - not all. And for those some, a creators decision to play it tight is as asset. We are not talking about selling cards - we are talking about ideas that some will use to set themselves apart from others. Of course not everyone should know everything!

My point is simple: We as buyers are not entitled to anything more than the seller is willing to provide. Of course, the seller may not sell anything but that should be their choice. If you want to ask questions, that's fine. But there is no place for the nonsense which goes on in the forums when a creator decides to try and protect his or her work.

Think of the controversies over the FK holdout. Remember the Protocols? Think of the moaning when Chris Mitchell put a fair price on his TOD routine. What about Kerry Pollack's d'lite routine. Those later cases engendered near class warfare because the creator put a price on their idea which they thought was fair. What did we see on here? People claiming those kinds of prices were UNFAIR! Not overpriced - but unfair to the people who could not afford to make the investment. And most of the complaining came from people who did not own the items nor planned to. But they were happy to come on and fish!

All of these behaviors including those we are discussing here stem from the same place, this "entitlement" magic purchasers feel today. This is the problem - not creators who are trying to make sure their ideas are treated as they desire.

Finally, there is backlash coming. For example, one young man I know has one of the best mentalism ideas I have seen in a long time. He is selling it - but only to people who his representative has approved as being trustworthy. His sales pitch is easy - he shows them EVERYTHING. But he knows that the people being brought to him would NEVER steal an idea - and if they liked even part of it, they would pay for it and treat it with respect.

And he's not the only one.

So, prepare for a new "backroom." One where the best ideas are being discussed away from these forums and the scavengers who think they are entitled to everyone's work - at the lowest bid.
JTW
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The only place we differ in opinion is on the obligation issue. I still contend that if a seller enters the marketplace (regardless of the product) they are entering into a type of relationship with potential buyers. Each has an obligation to the other.

Anyone in the past five years that has released something understands what goes on here on these boards. So they should know going in what to expect i.e the whining and cries of "Too Expensive".

As far as the backlash...I'm all for it. The market is out of hand. From manufacturers stealing products to consumers doing the same. I would like to see more people do business the way you describe.

Thank you for an engaging debate regardless of if we agree point for point it is good to know that some people here do care about the art.
John C
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Quote:
On 2007-11-23 13:58, truthteller wrote:
JTW,

The issue is with the concept of "obligation." If you and I were in a relationship which forced us to do business, then yes there are obligations. But we are not. I am not required to sell, and you are not required to buy. Because of that neither is beholden to the other.



Exactly correct.

One other thing, a lot of this has to do with the "I am owed mentaility." I mean, years ago before the Internet and forums and web sites etc there was a description in a magazine. That was it. No reviews, no questions, no nothing. You could attend a magic convention and see a product demo.

Now, with the ability (forums!) to ask questions, get reviews etc some folks STILL want MORE! I am owed MORE before I buy. No you're not OWED anything. Your alternative is to not buy. That's your choice.

The seller ONLY OWES the product you paid for.

John
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I hear there's a great company called Magic Makers that has solved a lot of the problems folks are talking about. I think Ben Salians's unce Rob runs it. Maybe he'll come here to comment.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

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evolve629
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Quote:
On 2007-11-23 15:10, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
I think Ben Salians's unce Rob runs it. Maybe he'll come here to comment.

An unce of Rob? Are we talking about his socks? Smile
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Review King
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Quote:
On 2007-11-23 18:26, evolve629 wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-11-23 15:10, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
I think Ben Salians's unce Rob runs it. Maybe he'll come here to comment.

An unce of Rob? Are we talking about his socks? Smile


HAHAHA. His "Uncle" Rob I meant.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
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I have read s few posts about stuff being stolen and perhaps I should start a fresh thread with this but it seems appropriate to post something here.

I can understand someone being vague with an idea, however it is a fine line... give enough away to make sales and give people faith it is a good product / give so much away that people steal it.

I have been working on a project for 2 and a half years now, quietly working away and researching and it is due to be released soon...

Last year I contacted a few people about it and they expressed interst in supporting it, said what a great idea it was and wanted to get involved.....

Guess what? Recently 2 of those people have claimed that they had an idea very similar and are actually going to do it.

Interestingly enough they both had months and months to let me know that instead of suddenly claiming it when they decide to rip it off.

If I were them I would also have responded to my first approaches with something along those lines rather than expressing how great an idea it was and saying they would love to be involved and then months down the line suddenly making an about turn.

One even fished for as much information as they could over a period of weeks before deciding to announce that they had a lack of any ethics or moralls whatsoever.

The good news is that I have over 20 years experience in the field I am talking about and they don't even have half of that between them, there is no way that their ideas could come close to what I have been working on but that doesn't stop the fact that these people are trying to take food out of my family's mouths and I don't like it one bit.

I truly can see both sides here and it's not an easy thing to get right. I for one am going to be a lot less trusting in sharing my ideas and concepts in the future.

Bri
John C
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Quote:
On 2007-11-24 15:59, mindyourmagic wrote:
I have read s few posts about stuff being stolen and perhaps I should start a fresh thread with this but it seems appropriate to post something here.

I can understand someone being vague with an idea, however it is a fine line... give enough away to make sales and give people faith it is a good product / give so much away that people steal it.

I have been working on a project for 2 and a half years now, quietly working away and researching and it is due to be released soon...

Last year I contacted a few people about it and they expressed interst in supporting it, said what a great idea it was and wanted to get involved.....

Guess what? Recently 2 of those people have claimed that they had an idea very similar and are actually going to do it.

Interestingly enough they both had months and months to let me know that instead of suddenly claiming it when they decide to rip it off.

If I were them I would also have responded to my first approaches with something along those lines rather than expressing how great an idea it was and saying they would love to be involved and then months down the line suddenly making an about turn.

One even fished for as much information as they could over a period of weeks before deciding to announce that they had a lack of any ethics or morals whatsoever.

The good news is that I have over 20 years experience in the field I am talking about and they don't even have half of that between them, there is no way that their ideas could come close to what I have been working on but that doesn't stop the fact that these people are trying to take food out of my family's mouths and I don't like it one bit.

I truly can see both sides here and it's not an easy thing to get right. I for one am going to be a lot less trusting in sharing my ideas and concepts in the future.

Bari


That's EXACTLY how Bill Gates stole the Apple OS from Steven Jobs ... and, it's similar to the way Steven Jobs stole Xerox OS to create Apple.

Funny how these things are prevalent in ALL industries.

John
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Steve Hook
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That's EXACTLY how Bill Gates stole the Apple OS from Steven Jobs ... and, it's similar to the way Steven Jobs stole Xerox OS to create Apple.

Funny how these things are prevalent in ALL industries.

Steve H

(I did not steal these comments from John Cesta)
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cupsandballsmagic
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John,
I'm with ya.. It hurts like hell though...

Steve,
If I wasn't still sore I would think that was funny!

Bri
cupsandballsmagic
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I also guess that Bill Gates / Steven Jobs are / were percieved as being well respected people in the industry too.....

Well, as and when the time comes, IFthe times comes, the truth shall out....
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