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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12967 Posts 
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On 2007-11-16 21:30, magic777 wrote: Of course. Who would pay that much for Frisbees! I am a working performer. I know that Nathan is a working performer. I get tired of "inventing" EVERYTHING I do. I'm willing to pay someone else to come up with some ideas. I'll take the effect and eventually make it my own. Maybe use pieces of it, maybe the entire thing. Just by the description I KNOW this is what I want to do. I don't care HOW it's done really as long as the audience SEES what Nathan says they will see. I can tell by the description this will play big. If I don't like the way a particular divination is handled I will change it. I never thought of using Frisbees, Nathan did. It's a good idea. I like it. I'm willing to pay him to see how he handles the rest of the effect. I am an adult magician. John |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts
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On 2007-11-17 09:06, johncesta wrote: If everyone in our field shared this attitude we would be so much better off. Instead we are surrounded by scavengers and poachers. Well put, John |
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randirain Inner circle Fort Worth, TX 1650 Posts
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I don't know...
Now that I think about it, Nathan really doesn't know how to write a magic ad. He totally left off a bunch of meeningless hype like... * It will change the way your audience sees you. * You can use it as an upsale. * Colors will be brighter and food will taste better. Or... * Extremely visual. * Looks like real magic. * Can be done in front of an audience. Add a little of that, and they will sell like hotcakes. Randi |
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Nathan Kranzo V.I.P. 2955 Posts
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Hi Randi,
Your right! Off to add those poiints to the copy! ; ) Steve, Brad, and others thanks so much for your support. I will say that the revalation of the thought of color is not just me saying "that's exactly right!". The funny thing is that IS part of the script. I tell the volunteer to blurt out the color that pops into their mind when I snap my fingers. They say "green" for example and then I say "that's exactly right!" and it gets a huge laugh. Then I proceed to show proof that was the target color I was sending via a great reveal that is NOT me just pulling a piece of paper out of my pocket that says "green". There I go saying to much! All the best, Kranzo
check out MINDZILLA VOL. 2!!! Brand New Effects. Instant Downloads. Watch Demo Videos. Click below!!!
KranzoMagic.com |
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Dr. Eamon Inner circle ------------John Dream------------If you can Dream it, you can Do it! 1317 Posts
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I think this one is not for me, Frisbees and funny????????
BTW, If you are able to sell 5 frisbees for $174.00 without a decent description, I think that's funny! LOL Naturally the effect can be word it, take your chance... |
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MagiAndrew New user 20 Posts
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On 2007-11-17 14:21, truthteller wrote: ...scavengers and poachers indeed. Unfortunately, they're on both sides of this fence. While there are an incredible number of magicians that are all too willing to rip off creators, there are also quite a few creators/retailers looking to rip off magic consumers. That's usually why people have so many questions about new products with incomplete descriptions. It is also, among other reasons, why they have the right to ask them (without being a jerk about it, of course). So if all magic customers were like John, and all creators were ethical, then we'd be much better off. I in no way mean to insinuate that Mr. Kranzo is an unethical creator. I'm speaking about the magic retail business in general. -Andrew |
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Nathan Kranzo V.I.P. 2955 Posts
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Folks I updated the description quite a bit. Hope this makes it more informative.
If you still are confused or want more info there is no need to wonder. Just feel free to pm or email me with any questions. I welcome any and all questions and will be happy to answer them. all the best, Kranzo
check out MINDZILLA VOL. 2!!! Brand New Effects. Instant Downloads. Watch Demo Videos. Click below!!!
KranzoMagic.com |
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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12967 Posts
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On 2007-11-17 19:39, MagiAndrew wrote: Keep in mind Andrew, if the creator's name was, say, Joe Schmere, in other words, if I had never heard of him I would never spend $149.00 without knowing everything about it. But Nathan has a pretty good reputation. 
I wouldn't think he wants to tarnish it in any way. John |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts
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Andrew,
You are right. But the issue (to me at least) is not with wanting to protect oneself through due diligence but with the sense of entitlement so many seem to be possessed by. Ultimately no one is required to buy anything, and there is always a risk involved. We have ALL been burned. Sadly, with the loss of brick and mortar shops, you can't get a real demo anymore. And with the completely democratic and anonymous nature of the internet, you never know how much stock to place into anyone's "opinion." But if you don't like the bill of sale you are reading, walk away. It's that simple. OR, better yet, introduce yourself to the seller privately, explain what you want to accomplish in your show, describe how you think this trick may fulfill that, and express your specific concerns. Then they can give you as much information as they feel comfortable with you having. How much better than demanding you are owed everything just for the asking. Brad |
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billfromoregon Special user 608 Posts
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I concur with truthteller's last post - if you have specific concerns, ask the creator or a reputable dealer for specific information. I have called Hocus-Pocus to ask about certain products and they have been very forthcoming. I don't go fishing for method, but sometimes I have specific concerns or requirements, and as truthteller states, they can give you as much info as they feel comfortable releasing. Being an occasional manufacturer of magic products, I understand both sides of the issue - we as consumers want to make sure that the product will give good value, and as manufacturers we want to protect ourselves from those simply wishing to gain enough knowledge to make the product themselves without compensating the creator. If we all operated with integrity, this wouldn't be an issue, but sadly, such is not the case.
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Chessmann Inner circle 4246 Posts
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On 2007-11-17 21:53, truthteller wrote: When you use this approach, a good seller with work with you, and be happy to oblige as much as he can because he feels his work will withstand scrutiny and satisfy the buyer. A bad seller will often get irriated, offering very little in the way of working with a potential buyer, particularly if he knows the item is not accurately represented.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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ritty360 Elite user McKinney, Texas 405 Posts
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Truthteller has made the best argument on this particular issue. I asked some specfic questions to nathan and he answered them for me so I could evaluate how and if this would fit into my show. Here is the key to success. Know your show and what you want to accomplish. I have a feeling that most folks attacking this are not workers. A worker would have asked Nathan pointed questions on how this would meld into a show and what you could expect.
Why has no one asked him how he used this to seque into other effects. Seriously, the idea that the ad doesn't appeal to you is a really childish reason to attack a creator. Thie difference between Nathan and other creators is that he actually shows up on these postings and is willing to answer questions. That cannot be said for other who sell product. Kind of like buying a IT hookup that has already been created or worse, doesn't add anything new to the community. nufff said... |
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MagiAndrew New user 20 Posts
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On 2007-11-17 21:53, truthteller wrote: Agreed! |
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Gianni Special user WILMINGTON, DE 993 Posts
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I was satisfied to bow out of this thread after my last post. But just when I thought I was out I get dragged back in...
I have read and reread all of the posts in this thread. Frankly, I saw: 1) NO evidence of anyone acting as a scavenger 2) NO evidence of anyone acting as a poacher 3) NO evidence that anyone had a sense of entitlement about what Nathan Kranzo owed a prospective purchaser. 4) NO disrespectful posts and only a very small possible claim that one post MIGHT be a bit rude I saw a few posts (mine included) saying that the ad for the effect could use more detail to induce a sight unseen/non-reviewed purchase. And of those few posts, all (with one possible exception) stated admiration for the creativity and potential of the basic premise. In spite of the foregoing, I see what appears to be a self-lauding club of individuals taking a firm and ferocious stand against would-be thieves of creative inventors. What's that all about? How can such a mild group of questions about wanting more clarity of an effect elicit this outpouring of outrage against the magic buyer jackals? It looks to me like a group of sycophants looking to find a place to rant about a pet peeve, and, not finding a truly suitable candidate, decided to load up on this topic. It's like a group of stoked up thugs who are looking for a fight and beat up a poor guy walking home from the library who happens to cross their path. The anger and sanctimony in this thread could be totally appropriate - but not in this thread. No poster here was out of line in trying to steal anything from anybody. Gianni |
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Steve Hook Inner circle Raleigh, NC, USA 1266 Posts
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Gianni:
You are a very persistent debater! But "sycophants"? "...a group of...thugs"? Some in this thread have been fighting a losing fight. I think the only point from the opposite side was that if the doubters didn't like the ad's information, the other side thought those folks could just simply move on to the next topic or trick. It's no big deal. There are hundreds of new tricks and thousands of old ones, as you know. What I saw was post after post looking for more information than Nate was obviously willing to provide. Why fight it? Just find another trick! I know you know a lot about magic, Gianni. I respect that. I must say that I don't understand why there has been an insistence for Nate to say more, particularly by magic777, and to some degree you, even when Nate repeatedly hadn't. It's this that Brad has responded to twice already in this thread. This anomaly continues to be an odd and hard to understand reoccurrence at TMC. - Steve H
Like Bonnie Raitt said, "I miss Little Feat more than I miss being 8 years old." Thanks for the concerts + recordings, Lowell, Richie, and Paul!
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nabil Regular user 198 Posts
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Wow, this thing is really interesting. Doesn't seem to be right for everyone, but it does sound like a chance to at the very least learn something potentially valuable from Nathan.
Brad, when you wrote, "But the issue (to me at least) is not with wanting to protect oneself through due diligence but with the sense of entitlement so many seem to be possessed by," how do you propose to do that? I'm totally with you on calling out the entitlement mentality. Its like a jail, except we are locking ourselves in. Its one of those self-limiting behaviors that really hold us back. Might I suggest that we all start with ourselves? Sometimes its tricky to catch oneself exhibiting the entitlement mentality. Maybe a good place to start is by demanding MORE from ourselves then we do from others. If we catch ourselves doing the opposite, then it may be a sign that we are practicing a terribly self-limiting mind set. Here's a quick example of such self-limiting behavior. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=177 These are the new "magic rental" guys. If you follow the link through to their site and FAQ's, you will see that the are renting dvds that clearly say, "NOT FOR RENTAL." They do this because its technically legal. Then they demand that their customers purchase any dvds containing any material that the customers wish to perform. This is clearly demanding more from others then they do from themselves (in this case- to do the right thing even though the wrong thing to do is apparently legal). Whoever is behind that site may make money, but by demanding more from others then they do from themselves, they are ultimately holding themselves back. How does this relate to the thread? Well as a potential buyer, one is NOT entitled to Nathan's full idea before buying. One is NOT entitled to know what is his ending, and one is NOT entitled to an online demo performance of the effect. This has been discussed with Bob Kohler's Pro Line. In the case of something like Nathan's item, many will buy the product simply to get inside the creators head and hopefully learn something. Many will be happy to have learned, even if they don't perform that routine. Some will not be. Those that are not happy will probably not want to buy from the same creator again, and will certainly not have good things to say about it. Those that are happy, probably will buy from the creator and will have good things to say about it (Nathan's customers are usually in this catagory). The result is that creators who feel entitled rip people off won't do as well as those who demand more from themselves and their products. Nabil |
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magic777 New user 87 Posts
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I do see some promise in this effect but I'm going to keep my gunpowder dry in this case, until I know more, because of the vagueness of the description.
Perhaps as a potential buyer, I am not entitled to know the full story. But as a buyer I certainly WILL know a lot more about the effect (otherwise I won't be a buyer). In a couple of months time I will learn a lot more about this effect. It will be discussed on various magic bloggs and forums to the extent that my decision to purchase it will become clear. If I have to pay $30 more, it will be worth it. I would rather pay $30 more for a good effect than pay $150 for a damp squib that will end up in the bottom drawer. If the effect is really good, and really fits in with my work, it will be worth $300 or much more, so I can never lose by waiting a few weeks. I may even pick it up on ebay for $120 from somebody who realised it wasn't for them. In my opinion it makes no sense whatsoever to buy now before the full story is known. Magic marketing is littered with effects which did not live up to their promise, so learn from history and be patient. Why take the risk? |
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randirain Inner circle Fort Worth, TX 1650 Posts
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Magic marketing is littered with effects which did not live up to their promise, so learn from history and be patient. Why take the risk? Well someone has to buy it or there won't be anyone talking about it. Right? How are you going to hear any news or reviews if nobody has it? Randi |
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Nathan Kranzo V.I.P. 2955 Posts
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Magic777 I have a very special offer just for you!
If this sounds like something you are interested in go ahead and click buy now. Then work on the effect and try it in front of a live audience. If you aren't happy with it I will give YOU a full refund. Now there is NO risk. All the best, Kranzo
check out MINDZILLA VOL. 2!!! Brand New Effects. Instant Downloads. Watch Demo Videos. Click below!!!
KranzoMagic.com |
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Turk Inner circle Portland, OR 3546 Posts
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Wow!! Can't get any fairer than that!! Way to go, Nathan!!
Mike (P.S.Bryn Reynolds (mindhunter) has a similar unconditional guarantee available (but to all buyers and, I think, on everything he sells). I have found that when a person trusts a person to do the right thing, most people bend over backwards to do the right thing and to not appear to be taking advantage of the other person's good faith and generosity.)
Magic is a vanishing Art.
This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto. Eschew obfuscation. |
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Posted: Nov 17, 2007 02:06 pm 
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