|
|
|
|||
| Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3..13~14~15~16 [Next] | ||||||||||
shaunproof Loyal user Parts Unknown 228 Posts 
|
Randi,
How do you know? If consumers had to wait, the service will not be successful. When paying $20 a month (or whatever it is), consumers want good service, and part of that will be fast shipping, and availability of titles. It's not 'fair' to sell crappy dvds with misleading ads and hype. But that often happens to consumers. |
|||||||||
|
Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2007-12-06 20:39, randirain wrote: How do you know that the persons who rented the DVD would have ever bought it? You don't and that is why your argument is not valid. Maybe the creator actually made more money than he would have because the ones that run the service bought the DVDs? |
|||||||||
Dominic Reyes Inner circle Got to a gig too early so wrote his 1429 Posts
|
Both good questions!
Shaun - Because a person buys an effect that they do not like, it does not justift another person distributing ALL magic DVD's including the ones that everyone loves, without contributing to the production cost of the project equal to the number of potential customers it removes from the market. Micheal - The people that 'would not have brought it anyway, and more likly not to choose it as the one or two titles that they rent each month. These peope however, suffer in the renting model as they pay $20 each month with just as mucg garentee that what they wil recieve will be what they were hoping for. The renting companies give no promise of quality. The people that would have not 'brought it anyway', are not of any concern in this debate, its the removal of people from the market that WOULD have brought it, but now have the DVD without any contribution to its creation costs, that destroys the process where small creators can finance projects in a professional manner.
MagicShop.co.uk - The Merchant of Magic
Free Ebook: Approaching Magic Practice. Free Ebook: Why Magicians Don't Get the Fee's They Feel They Deserve Free Ebook: How to Avoid the Pitfalls of Performing Magic to your Family and Friends |
|||||||||
|
Dominic Reyes Inner circle Got to a gig too early so wrote his 1429 Posts
|
You may find this interesting. Its an email repy from the renting company responsible for trying to trick magcians into visiting its site with fase adverts in Genii. You know the one, that thinks making a fool out of you is a great way to get you to give them your credit card details.
I asked why him how he could hold his head up high at magic conventions amongst the magicians who feel are being ripped off by him. He justified why magcians use his service as follows: ---'The reason people are buying it is because they don’t find out if it’s crap until after they’ve spent the money. And despite what you may think about my business ethics, this business is proving successful and will continue to, because even if you convince every one who calls themselves a magician to only buy original copies -from licensed magic dealers who have the performers permission to do so- invariably these so called “ethical magicians” will eventually buy a DVD that sucks and they will feel they were ripped off. And every time that happens, we get another customer who signs up.'----- I then asked him the following: My friend, its so easy to get a bad reputation in a small market place, and I really would like to see you do well in business, you have a great business drive, or you would not be doing this. Why not take your stock and become a regular magic dealer. Offer a 100% money back guarantee, as that does the same as your current model claims, by giving customer a choice to keep the product only if they want it. HIS REPLY: 'Because this is a much better business. Even though I strongly believe this is very good for magic in general, that’s not why I’m doing it.' So this guy is thinking only about his 'bottom line' Is that the type of business you want your magic to come from? Another way to look at it is a 'Fair trade' issue. just like nikes sweat shops and the coffee farmers, recieving pennies for their product, while the multi-nationals make the profit and cut them out. That's on a large scale. Bring it right down to a tiny market that does not make anyone rich, and you have companies like this taking others work work against their permission and exploiting it. I'm now working with the UK Magic Dealers Association here in the Uk to look at what can be done to promote the message that renting magic DVDs can be viewed as stealing.
MagicShop.co.uk - The Merchant of Magic
Free Ebook: Approaching Magic Practice. Free Ebook: Why Magicians Don't Get the Fee's They Feel They Deserve Free Ebook: How to Avoid the Pitfalls of Performing Magic to your Family and Friends |
|||||||||
|
shaunproof Loyal user Parts Unknown 228 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2007-12-07 06:16, Dominic Reyes wrote: But it's not stealing. It might hurt your bottom line, but it's not stealing. A bad review could hurt your bottom line, but it's not stealing. Friends loaning each other dvds could hurt your bottom line, but it's not stealing. Competition could hurt your bottom line, but it's not stealing. Calling renting magic dvds stealing, and implying the renters and rentees to be thiefs, is a bigger ethical conundrum than whatever this renting company is doing. |
|||||||||
Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts
|
Quote:
Calling renting magic dvds stealing, and implying the renters and rentees to be thiefs, is a bigger ethical conundrum than whatever this renting company is doing. I don't think so. a thief is a thief. a company who has to use fake ads, is a company that's shameful by self addmission. |
|||||||||
|
Dominic Reyes Inner circle Got to a gig too early so wrote his 1429 Posts
|
Shaunproof - Depends on your definition of stealing. The rental company is not paying the creator of the effect a share of the production costs equal to the number of people it gives the item too. Unlike a private individual, it is doing it on a large organised scale, and sending out a message that this is acceptable. Its really a form of copying anothers work, without duplicating the item, you keep lending it out for money, taking customers away from the fair trade system of everyone putting in an equal amount towards the cost of a project.
An analogy: Imagine you and your fiends went out to a restaurant and paid for an 'all you can eat' buffet, But unlike your friends, you took the food went next door to sell it at your own restaurant counter, you keep poping back and taking more and more food as the restaurant owner gets more and more upset. The other people in your party, would be rather shocked I imagine, and feel that you were not playing the game fairly. You are destroying the restaurants income, and taking the food to profit from. You clearly saw the signs on the door saying that all food should be eaten on the premises, but you know a legal loophole, that will allow you to do this, and you really don't care what your friends think of you as your making money, at least until the original restaurant goes out of business. If you feel THAT is a form of stealing, when we both agree on a similar definition.
MagicShop.co.uk - The Merchant of Magic
Free Ebook: Approaching Magic Practice. Free Ebook: Why Magicians Don't Get the Fee's They Feel They Deserve Free Ebook: How to Avoid the Pitfalls of Performing Magic to your Family and Friends |
|||||||||
|
Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts
|
Quote:
....may just find yourself at the business end of a defamation lawsuit. Your post will probably be deleted. They're not thieves. They are operating within the law. So am I, I can have whatever opinion I wish. I can state it here too. if Mr.Brooks wants to delete it that's fine, I can respect that. id love for them to sue me, id drag it out as long as I could, I come from below middle class family and I live pay check to pay check. fat chance they get a dime from me. they would have lots of fun legal fee's tho. oh yeah, at best I would get issued a scary desist letter. *shiver* I'm not sure why you feel the need to use scare tactics with me, I can assure you I'm not scared of people with ties. if you disagree with what I said, respectfully say so, and list why. that's how discussion works, that's what this is, last I heard we are not on some grand authority magic panel, this is the internet. |
|||||||||
|
Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts
|
I do see what you mean. I did however only say a thief is a thief, take that how you will. I did call their buisness shameful. I beleive if you have to use false ads to get in a magazine and get people to come, this is self evident.
sorry I got defensive btw 
|
|||||||||
|
Dominic Reyes Inner circle Got to a gig too early so wrote his 1429 Posts
|
Hi Steve
My comment was that 'this guy is thinking only about his 'bottom line' Is that the type of business you want your magic to come from?' The important word here is 'ONLY' I also agree that renting magic DVD companies business model is flawed and does not have a future, but it does attempt to set a new standard in what is an acceptable way to retail magic. The model has no limits to market. Any of the current large dealers, could replicate the site within a couple of days and offer far more titles at half the monthly subscription. Even if everyone remains indifferent to it, I think the current companies that are doing this would not have a long term future. Most of these companies will close down, just like the bedroom dealer discount stores after a few years, but not before loads of copy sites pop up, thinking that it will be a money spinner.Unless its clear that the community takes a low view of it, then it opens doors. As you work for a couple of larger companies like E, you can feel secure, The main danger of renting falls, in my opinion on the small independent creators that only release their own titles, and need the recovery of income that buying your magic DVD's rather than renting them, provides Wishing you the best as always Dominic
MagicShop.co.uk - The Merchant of Magic
Free Ebook: Approaching Magic Practice. Free Ebook: Why Magicians Don't Get the Fee's They Feel They Deserve Free Ebook: How to Avoid the Pitfalls of Performing Magic to your Family and Friends |
|||||||||
|
balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2007-12-07 09:09, Dominic Reyes wrote: That is a good analogy, but not for the reason you think. Food served at these restaurants is for personal consumption on site only. There is no 'legal loophole' as you suggest that allows one to take the food next door and resell the food etc. In the example of an all you can eat buffet, the management further controls who they serve food to and they restrict distribution of the food to legitimate customers. They ONLY sell to end-users of the food. Someone might sneak food out ONCE, but after that they would be found out and be refused service on future visits. In the case of magic DVDs, the artists / producers hawk their products to any snot-nosed kids with $29.99 in their pockets. They do not restrict distribution of their product in any meaningful way, or ensure that the purchasers of their product are end-users only. So they are at fault for taking no actions that would ruin the viability of the rental market.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
|
|||||||||
|
balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2007-12-07 11:35, Dominic Reyes wrote: Those are your words, not his. I read what he wrote and I think it is unfair to claim that he said the bottom line was his ONLY concern. I did not parse that from what he wrote. He said his business was also good for magic. And that his business model was better than the one you proposed, and was more likely to succeed. That's a long way from the claim that the bottom line is his ONLY concern.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
|
|||||||||
|
The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2007-12-07 14:57, balducci wrote: Isn't that what knockoff builders claim as well? Its their excuse for pocketing the bucks to be made. Best, Tim |
|||||||||
|
Dominic Reyes Inner circle Got to a gig too early so wrote his 1429 Posts
|
Balducci - My clarification of 'ony' refers to my opinion of the rental companies motivation, and Steves interpretation of my statement, not the rental companies. Hope this clears up your confusion. If not please re-read the whole thread again.
You added additional conditions of trade to the restaurant within my analogy. I feel it still puts the point I'm trying to make across well enough. But as you say you are not a magician and hate magic in your earlier posts, I assume that your more interested in argument, for arguments sake, rather than the conclusion of the issues involved. I don't have the motivation to be play that game with you to be honest, my friend.
MagicShop.co.uk - The Merchant of Magic
Free Ebook: Approaching Magic Practice. Free Ebook: Why Magicians Don't Get the Fee's They Feel They Deserve Free Ebook: How to Avoid the Pitfalls of Performing Magic to your Family and Friends |
|||||||||
|
balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2007-12-07 18:47, Dominic Reyes wrote: My friend, perhaps you need a course in reading comprehension? I never said that I was not a magician or that I hate magic! That's outlandish!!! Especially the second point! I assume you have me confused with someone else. But you should get your names and facts straight before you accuse people of one thing or another.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
|
|||||||||
|
edh Inner circle 4698 Posts
|
Quote:
So this guy is thinking only about his 'bottom line' Is that the type of business you want your magic to come from? Domenic, and you don't think that anyone who is in business thinks about thier bottom line? This includes the creators of magic effects and the distributers of said effects as well. Believe it or not Domenic people who are in business are in it to make a buck. I'm not going to read through all of the pages of this thread. But I think you mentioned that you were a producer of magic effects(please correct me if I'm wrong). Aren't you in business to make money?
Magic is a vanishing art.
|
|||||||||
|
Dominic Reyes Inner circle Got to a gig too early so wrote his 1429 Posts
|
Yep, sorry mate, I've just got back from a booking and its past midnight here, I'm discussing this on several threads and confused you with a guy called C. Loubard.
my appologies Balducci My answer to your comments in the previous post is still valid though, but cance out the 'I hate magic' bit at the end as that's a different guy, with a similar writing style.
MagicShop.co.uk - The Merchant of Magic
Free Ebook: Approaching Magic Practice. Free Ebook: Why Magicians Don't Get the Fee's They Feel They Deserve Free Ebook: How to Avoid the Pitfalls of Performing Magic to your Family and Friends |
|||||||||
|
Dominic Reyes Inner circle Got to a gig too early so wrote his 1429 Posts
|
Edh - Hi yes I own a large bricks and mortar magic shop in england which supports a team of staff, but make most of my money as a professional performer. I also produce titles under The Merchant of Magic Label for other creators, several of which are now being rented against our wishes. My motivation is not primerily financial, I run my magic business because I love magic. If I wanted to run a retai business just from profit, magic would be the last type of product I would choose. The companies are profitable, but not by selling people products without them recieving a share equal to the number of customers I remove from the market for that item.
MagicShop.co.uk - The Merchant of Magic
Free Ebook: Approaching Magic Practice. Free Ebook: Why Magicians Don't Get the Fee's They Feel They Deserve Free Ebook: How to Avoid the Pitfalls of Performing Magic to your Family and Friends |
|||||||||
|
Gordon Bean V.I.P. 103 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2007-12-06 20:36, edh wrote: Good question. In this case, the most important difference between a lending service and a reference library would seem to be the opportunity the former provides--and the latter denies--to copy DVDs. |
|||||||||
|
Dominic Reyes Inner circle Got to a gig too early so wrote his 1429 Posts
|
Well put Gordon!
A library wthin a magicians club is also not a commercial concern, making money for an individual. As they are reference only and do not allow magcians to take the items home, they work because creators and magicians benifit more from the sharing experience than the damage the sharing does to the market for that effect. Its a compromise both parties are happy with. The clubs also provie a venue for the performers to lecture support the performers etc. A mail order renting company, provides no venue, it profits from the distribution and rents the dvds regardless of the wishes of the creator.
MagicShop.co.uk - The Merchant of Magic
Free Ebook: Approaching Magic Practice. Free Ebook: Why Magicians Don't Get the Fee's They Feel They Deserve Free Ebook: How to Avoid the Pitfalls of Performing Magic to your Family and Friends |
|||||||||
| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Latest and Greatest? » » The Perfect Levitation (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
| Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3..13~14~15~16 [Next] | ||||||||||
Posted: Dec 7, 2007 02:38 am 
X
| [ Top of Page ] |
|
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.08 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
|
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < 
|