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REV BILL
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Can someone tell me the name of the brother that makes the CD on false psychics? I would like to order it.It was advertised in the Conjurer but I can not find the issues. Thank you
Specializing in Family Entertainment,Gospel,Comedy and Educational programs for over 30 years.(Order of Merlin)
Terry Holley
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You might be looking for Toby Travis at:

http://www.magiinc.org/

I don't see the material advertised, but you can contact him through the site.

Rod Robison also had a cassette tape available years ago.

http://www.mentallusions.com/

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
REV BILL
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Thanks Terry, Rod Robison was who I was thinking of. -- Bill
Specializing in Family Entertainment,Gospel,Comedy and Educational programs for over 30 years.(Order of Merlin)
Terry Holley
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You're welcome Bill.

You might also be interested in two books that illusionist Andre' Kole coauthored: "Mind Games" and "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."

He is not currently advertising them on his web site http://www.andrekoleshow.com , but they are available online from various book sellers.

Toby Travis had a video (Know Fooling) on the subject that at one time could be watched on his web site, but he has recently made some changes on his site and it is no longer on it.

I did find the page it is advertised on:

http://www.tobytravis.org/kf/kfdvd.html

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Hannibal
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"False Psychic"?

Isn't that redundant?
Terry Owens
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Terry is right, I have Andre's videos and they are very good, and if you're a pastor Toby will send one of his videos free (if he still offers them) and that was very good. Excellent source of information from both...

Keep the faith!
REV BILL
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Thanks to everyone. I already have the afore mentioned books and tapes. They are excellent. I contacted Mr.Robison for his CD and manuscript.All of the helps are appreciated.-- Rev Bill
Specializing in Family Entertainment,Gospel,Comedy and Educational programs for over 30 years.(Order of Merlin)
Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
'False Psychic'? Isn't that redundant?

Depends on your views, I suppose.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Joe Marotta
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Can You Believe I Have
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Quote:
On 2007-11-25 05:02, Hannibal wrote:
"False Psychic"?

Isn't that redundant?


I concur and also agree with you....

By the way Hannibal, Welcome To The Magic Café! Glad that you've joined us here.

Joe
Steve_Mollett
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A point to keep in mind before we throw brickbats too smugly:

The Amazing Randi once reminded me that Christianity (and religion in general) makes claims as extraordinary, and as empirically unverifiable, as the claims of psychics.

I think that we who maintain the faith must, consequently, display a little intellectual humility.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Joe Marotta
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Would you please clarify what you saying Steve? I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that Christianity is unverifiable and comparably equal to the psychics beliefs or practices? Are you in agreement with Randi's statement?

Also, when you say "throw brickbats", are you meaning we shouldn't judge what is true and what is false?

Joe
Terry Owens
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I have doctors testimonies as to the miraculous healings that had occured in our church over the past few years. Total healings, doctor's verification, changed lives...better than psychics...the problem with Randi, he doesn't tend to believe anything that is a claim of supernatural...just because there are false claims made by individuals (such as we saw on the NBC flop with Uri and Chris)doesn't negate the fact that claims of the miraculous often times are real.

Bishop Terry M. Owens
Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
Would you please clarify what you saying Steve? I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that Christianity is unverifiable and comparably equal to the psychics beliefs or practices?

Yes. Empirically, what we believe as Christians holds up no better to scientific analysis and critical thinking than the claims of psychics, which is why we base our beliefs on 'faith.'

Quote:
Are you in agreement with Randi's statement?

Intellectually, yes. While I believe in God, I can no more hand him to you in a test tube than I can a unicorn; I acknowledge that gracefully.

Quote:
Also, when you say 'throw brickbats', are you meaning we shouldn't judge what is true and what is false?

Not at all. Everyone judges what is true and false, whatever conclusions they come to. The point here is that our beliefs are based on what cannot be empirically proven, therefore we are on no more solid ground, scientifically, than anyone who believes anything else that cannot be confirmed empirically (including psi).
To accuse all psychics of being fakes based on the trickery, abuses and misconceptions of a few, opens us up to the same accusations based on the trickery, abuses and misconceptions of a handful of fake faith healers, phony miracle workers and others who use The Lord as a racket.
Does this mean we should accept other supernatural claims at face value? Certainly not. What it does mean is that we need to remember that while our house is founded on a rock, we are still in a 'glass house' empirically. The brickbats we throw can crack our own walls in the eyes of the undecided if we are not prudent.
Better to bring the undecided to Christ by our living example and a kind, inviting image, than by attacking "those other people" and appearing mean and belligerent. To the undecided, we might look, initially, no different than those 'other people,' just more combative and judgmental.


Quote:
I have doctors testimonies as to the miraculous healings that had occurred in our church over the past few years. Total healings, doctor's verification, changed lives...better than psychics...the problem with Randi, he doesn't tend to believe anything that is a claim of supernatural...just because there are false claims made by individuals (such as we saw on the NBC flop with Uri and Chris)doesn't negate the fact that claims of the miraculous often times are real.

Being a Christian, I believe in healing through divine intervention, facilitated by faith. I should point out, however, that the reasoning you are offering relies on more than one logical fallacy; most notably "begging the question," and the "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" fallacy.
http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/logic/logic.html
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
robwar0100
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Steve,

Jews and Christians have more than ample evidence to believe in the Almighty God. Yes, we have to make a leap of faith, but it is not a blind faith. History and science have never contradicted anything in the Bible. Yes, we need faith, but we can see everywhere the fingerprints of God.

Bobby
"My definition of chance is my hands on the wheel," Greg Long.
Clark
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"Evidence" is a tricky word, be very careful throwing it around in theological discussion.
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein
Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
Jews and Christians have more than ample evidence to believe in the Almighty God. Yes, we have to make a leap of faith, but it is not a blind faith. History and science have never contradicted anything in the Bible. Yes, we need faith, but we can see everywhere the fingerprints of God.

I hate to tell you, but world history and science have had contention with various biblical points, such as the global flood.

If the 'evidence' you speak of was as ample as you claim, we would probably have little-to-no difficulty converting everyone. The examples of evidence I have seen cited in the past have reflected a heavy subjective bias, and often flaws of logic. When we follow our hearts, it is also useful to take our brains along.

You will need to step out of your comfort zone and view these concepts from the other side's viewpoint, with an open mind, to fully understand what I am saying and to get a perspective of what we are truly up against.

Before pushing any further, I suggest your absorbing some basics of critical thinking. Here is a good source: criticalthinking.org

Another exercise I recommend, if you are willing to experience 'a dousing of cold water,' is to arrange to visit a public university philosophy class on the subject of 'man, God and religion,' as taught by an empiricist, and engage in an open discussion with the professor and students. The experience will prove frustrating, but also quite educational.

Paul himself experienced this when he tried to address the Greek philosophers; he wound up stomping off in a 'nit' but, while scripture does not say so, he probably got a better perspective on the magnitude of his task in the bargain.

Incidentally, the definition of 'faith' is belief not backed by evidence so, functionally, all faith is blind.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
robwar0100
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Steve,

Thanks for your comments. I was born into a Catholic family, and the Catholic church was the church of my youth. I abandoned the church and the faith because I had questions about God.

When I was 25, I met a family who changed my life. I looked at the Bible, examined its claims and did a lof of the critical thinking you suggest.

After my examination, I made a decision to follow Jesus and was baptized for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the HOly Spirit (Acts 2:38ff).

Every day, I examine my faith, listen to all opinions, because I want to be sure the decision I made nearly 20 years ago was the right one.

There is nothing comfortable about the zone I am in, except for the fact that Jesus died to save me from my sins. There is an outside chance I might be wrong, but in the words of Adrien Monk, "I don't think so."

Keep the faith, blind or otherwise,

Bobby
"My definition of chance is my hands on the wheel," Greg Long.
Terry Holley
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Steve:

Are you suggesting that the evidence of Christ's miracles to those around him was not "ample"? It appears you are because you state that if we had ample evidence "we would probably have little-to-no difficulty converting EVERYONE." I'm wondering because we know that not everyone who saw the miracles of Christ was convinced that he was God in the flesh.

Also, your definition of faith (belief not backed by evidence) seems to leave something to be desired. Can you expand on that by giving an illustration of if and when you exhibit faith?

Thanks,

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Payne
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Quote:
On 2007-12-19 23:16, Terry Holley wrote:
Steve:

Also, your definition of faith (belief not backed by evidence) seems to leave something to be desired. Can you expand on that by giving an illustration of if and when you exhibit faith?

Thanks,

Terry


From Merriam - Webster


Main Entry: Faith
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths \ˈfâths, sometimes ˈfâthz\
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust — more at bide
Date: 13th century
1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions
2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

Note "1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof" seems to be another way to say "A belief not backed by evidence" so Mr. Mollett's definition is quite correct.

As of yet there is no substative "proof" proof for any God so their existence must be taken on Faith and Faith alone lest one gets killed at the next Zebra Crossing they come to. Point to the person who sites that reference.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
Are you suggesting that the evidence of Christ's miracles to those around him was not "ample"?

Keep in mind that the accounts of the miracles were anecdotal. Anecdotal evidence is not sufficient due to its subjective and untestable nature (Dr. A. Puharich testifies in his book, URI, that he was with Uri Gellar in the desert when a UFO landed, the Egyptian god Horus came out, and the god and Uri went inside the UFO). In show-biz the skewed anecdotal account is called the 'wagging of tongues' (aka legend building via gossip; urban legends).

Does this mean the miracles did not happen? No. What it does mean is that the anecdotal accounts cannot stand as proof according to the basic laws of logic.

Quote:
Also, your definition of faith (belief not backed by evidence) seems to leave something to be desired.

Actually, it's the established definition, as Payne and I both pointed out. If it leaves something to be desired, that's unfortunate, but it IS the definition.

Quote:
Can you expand on that by giving an illustration of if and when you exhibit faith?

There is no 'if'; I do exhibit faith. I exhibit faith by believing in God and in Yshua (Jesus) as the messiah. I exhibit faith by believing we are all loved and valued by God and have a positive destiny. I exhibit faith by believing that God is a personal being whom we can contact directly, through the messiah and the Holy Spirit, and without the need of clergy. I exhibit faith by believing in divine intervention, healing, miracles and personalized gifts of the Spirit. I exhibit faith by believing in a glorious afterlife where we will finally see, clearly, all that we must now take on faith.

Can I prove any of what I believe empirically or philosophically? No; I would be arrogant and self-deceiving to say I could.

The fact that I still believe...that is faith.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
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