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Terry Holley
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This really isn't the correct forum to get into all these discussions, and I don't really have the time to respond in the way I would like, but I question the definitions of faith that have been given in this thread.

I will simply point others to a web site that explains how I understand the use of faith in the Bible:

http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.html

My agreement ends at the conclusion of the article, and I don't endorse the added comments.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Steve_Mollett
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Which brings us back to the original problem: proof.

If faith must be based on proof (beyond 'evidence' subjectively acceptable to the individual, but not invulnerable to empirical/philosophical scrutiny) we're in a world of hurt.

This alternative definition of faith makes it sound a bit like we all have to be Thomas. As Christ is attributed to have said to Thomas, however, "You believe because you have seen, but blessed are those who believe without seeing."
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Payne
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Quote:
On 2007-12-21 06:12, Steve_Millet wrote:

Which brings us back to the original problem: proof.

Unfortunately "proof" is relative. For believers the Bible is the only proof they need or desire and thus accept it without question to be the infallible word of their God.

Others however see it as simply a book of stories written by men trying to explain and define the world around them and thus need something a tad bit more reliable and unbiased before changing their world view.

Both sides of the philosophical spectrum fail to have all the answers and both require a certain amount of faith to maintain their perception of the universe.

As a strict materialist I must admit that there are holes in our knowledge base and aspects of our modeling that as of yet have no explanation.
My faith (for lack of a better term) is that we have always been able to find the answers questions in the material world and thus see no reason why this won't continue on into the future as we learn more about ourselves and our universe.

Others simply put their faith in God and find all their answers in his word.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Terry Owens
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The whole universe is proof...what if I said I didn't believe in atheists, what proof is there that there is such a critter...
Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
The whole universe is proof...

Only because you have subjectively evaluated it as such. You see a pattern, whether it exists or not (psychologists call that 'closure') and then draw a subjective conclusion based on combining that closure with preconceived beliefs.
Unfortunately, it does not have to add up to your conclusion. Again check out:
http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/logic/logic.html
and look at the sections on 'non-sequitors' and 'begging the question.'

Looking at the wonders of the universe and saying, "Ah, the handiwork of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." is a subjective evaluation based in an established belief in Yhwh (aka Jehovah).

An unbiased look at the universe does not have to result in that evaluation.

A Hindu could look at the universe and say, "Ah, the handiwork of Brahmah, Vishnu and Shiva."

An empiricist could react with, "Ah, the surprising effects of physics and random chance."

As to the allusion to denying the existence of atheists: I personally know Christians, Jews, Messianic Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, Celtic and Hellenistic Pagans, Atheists, and Agnostics. Their empirical presence makes it extremely difficult to rationally deny their existence.

On the other hand, I have never seen UFO aliens, bigfoot, chupacabra, leprechauns, gnomes, the Jersey devil or unicorns. In the absence of verifiable empirical validation, I can readily accept someone's reluctance to believe in their existence.

But, yes, we are all straying heavily from both the point of the thread, and even my original reason for speaking up.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Terry Owens
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Good grief Charlie Brown...

Rev Bill if you need a copy of Toby Travis' great teaching on this subject, I have the DVD, and could ask him if he still offers it. Let me know if you're interested in it.
Toby
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I do still have about 50 of the DVD's in stock. They are available at:

http://www.tobytravis.org/kf/kfdvd.html#four

You can also view a portion of the DVD online at:

http://www.tobytravis.org/media/video/index.htm

Hope this is helpful.
Terry Owens
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Glad to have you on the Café Toby...You're certainly one of the top Gospel performers out there. I really appreciate your heart and vision for ministry.
spcarlson
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Wow, this is quite a theological debate.

Steven
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from Merlin to Marilyn

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MindMyst
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Hi everyone. I just wanted to drop a line saying how much I enjoyed reading this thread, and put in a couple of items...

Steve_Mollett said:

Intellectually, yes. While I believe in God, I can no more hand him to you in a test tube than I can a unicorn; I acknowledge that gracefully.

Job 39:9-12 ... a little something about the unicorn from God.

Steve also said:

I hate to tell you, but world history and science HAVE had contention with various biblical points, such as the global flood.

Well, Jesus had a little something to say about that...

Jhn 5:46-47 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


Anyway, this is just the literalist in me.

Happy New Year to everyone.

Joe
The Truth Will Set Your Fee
http://mindmyst.blogspot.com/
Steve_Mollett
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Which all gets us back to square one, and continues in the same circles.

Plus, before we get too far in left field:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v14/i2/unicorn.asp
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Joe Marotta
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Steve- Your above post actually brings us to far left field when you bring up the 'unicorn' vs 'wild ox' translation debate. Please let's stay on the original Topic of the poster seeking CDs of False Psychics.

Steve- previously you stated (again off topic), "Paul himself experienced this [frustrations] when he tried to address the Greek philosophers; he wound up stomping off in a 'nit' but, while scripture does not say so, he probably got a better perspective on the magnitude of his task in the bargain."

This is true, Scripture doesn't say so. In fact Acts 17:16-34 where Paul meets Greek philosophers, the Scriptures don't say 'he stomped off in a nit' or anything like that at all. In fact it states he addressed them, then some mocked and others said they wanted to hear more. v34 "However, some men joined him (Paul) and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them." Looks like Paul was very successful in his discussions. Please don't try to paint Paul as a coward or ineffective witness.

I appologize to everyone for being off the original Topic, but I felt the need to address the above 'off topic' posts. Steve, if you wish to further discuss these things, please PM me directly so we can be respectful of The Magic Café rules. I will not post another reply here unless it has to do specifically with the topic 'CD on false psychics'. I will not reply to other off topic posts.

I recommend we all stay on topic.

Thanks,
Joe
spcarlson
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Psychics from a Christian perspective.

These heated debates would probably not happen if we were all sitting around a table chatting. The weak spot in e-mail or web posts such as the Café, is the translating of our thoughts into the typed word, we are trying to abbreviate our wording so we don’t take up too much space, plus we are typing quickly and probably not re-reading what we typed. I really don’t think anyone here is in opposition on this topic, as Christians I am sure everyone thinks and feels much the same way.

In the 10th & 11th posts Mr. Marotta responded rather quickly to what Mr. Mollet was saying and that is what stared this whole exchange on “evidence, faith, history and science. The only problem with this veering off is the original question or topic gets lost and buried. I notice this happens quite frequently at the Café, not just here, but on all topics. Maybe the person who originated the post should act as moderator of the post to keep the subject on track.

Lets talk about psychics from a Christian perspective. This is a good topic for magicians who are Christians to tackle here at the Café. I hear enough theological debating at bible study and church ;o) Personally, I would like to get more information on the subject of psychics, as a magician who expresses his faith I am asked about it quite frequently.

God bless,
Steven
Legendary Creations

from Merlin to Marilyn

www.MagicalArtCreations.com

www.StevenPaulCarlson.com
Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
Lets talk about psychics from a Christian perspective.

Like a lot of other things in Christianity, there's more than one perspective floating about.

But, since I'm 'getting everyone off topic,' I'll just let this one lay and let it run wherever it will without further input.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Joshua Barrett
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I saw Andre Kole's show tonight it was a lot of fun. he had some books for sale at the show on this topic.
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2008-02-24 00:16, Joshua Barrett wrote:
I saw andre kole's show tonight it was a lot of fun. he had some books for sale at the show on this topic


Did you buy any?

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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