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tommy
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I don’t play roulette nor have I ever been to Vegas but I find it hard to believe that you could have 5K on the 2 to 1 shots back then. What are the limits on the strip now?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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I don't know about Roulette...but, usually it is designed in such a way that you can not double up more than 5-7 times before hitting the house limit on a particular table.
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tommy
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I know they have high limit private rooms but on the high limit tables in the pulic rooms it's about a Maximum limit of $5,000 on the even money shots in a good casino here "I think" and most places I go to are just small places with a limit of about a grand I guess.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Mr. Z
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Depends, probably 5K for anyone in off the street. Depends on the game too, often the max payout will be several times the posted table maximum. For instance several Strip casinos will allow prop bet payoffs in craps up to 3x the table max, or some places put a cap on it like $30,000 max payoff. Caesars currently has the highest limits in town, $50,000 max line/come bets with single odds, $10,000 on the hardways, $25/30,000 on place bets. For the wheel they allow bets of $3,000 straight-up, among others.

I don't know what the limits were like when Marcus was supposedly getting it on, I think he did address it in the book. There was still no limit at the Horseshoe then so booking a 5K outside bet on the Strip seems pretty reasonable.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
tommy
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Well I am thinking:

If there is a Max of 10K on the Even money shots such as RED, then there is a 5K Max on the 2 to 1 shots, such as a Dozen Column.

So if he is saying I put a 5K chip + a $10 chip on the 2 to 1 Dozen Column, then the Max on that table for placing a bet on say RED must be $10K +.

If the limit for the 2 to 1 shots was $5K then he has gone over the limit by $10.

The bottom line is, I think he is at least exaggerating the amount.

Not only that what sort of normal person would put a $5K and $10 down. Why the odd Ten Bucks? the casino would think that is strange. Even if they could not prove it, I don’t think they would stand for that more than once, not for that sort of dough. I would find it more believable if he had said, I used to put a $25 chip with a $5 chip on top or a 50 with a 10. Even at that if they called the eye every time you did it you would soon be red hot.

I don’t know though but it just don’t sound true to me, that he got rich doing that. Maybe if the croupier was on the firm it would help. But then the dealer would still look bad for not calling the large bet. So I think even more that if it was done then it was done for lower amounts.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Quote:
On 2008-10-08 08:49, tommy wrote:
Not only that what sort of normal person would put a $5K and $10 down. Why the odd Ten Bucks? the casino would think that is strange. Even if they could not prove it....


This is exactly what I've been thinking since watching the video. Having never been in a casino in my life, however, I'm hardly an expert. Smile

It also reminds me of that guy I mentioned in the Marlingdale thread...can't remember his name...a German guy who claims to have won ten million or something like that at roulette. He makes the claim, the claim gets repeated, but there is no real evidence whatsoever that the claim is true.

Or is there? Is there any information about Marcus that doesn't have Marcus at its original source?
Mr. Z
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When it comes to the nickel or dime "capper" Marcus would just want to appear to have an eccentric betting style. If a boss were to question it apparently he'd just say the bet was for the dealer and he wasn't sure where to place it. It's been awhile since I read the book but I'm pretty sure if they just couldn't win a bet they'd move to a different game or casino--even then though to go from what looks like a $15 bet to a $5,010 bet is definitely suspicious, but to his credit he says that was the strength of the move--when the bet won it was totally legit.

Don't be so quick to judge any of this. Working in a casino you see all sorts of weird stuff on a daily basis.

There's no dispute Marcus got these moves on to some degree, I just question whether he was as successful at it as he claims.

Also I don't know what it was like back then, but nowadays it'd be very difficult to get that kind of move down for the simple reason that most places won't let you do anything with a high-denomination check like a yellow or a chocolate until they either see a player's card or get confirmation where the hell you got it from. Especially with the "Savannah," I'd go so far as to say nowadays that there would be a fairly slim chance of it getting paid.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2008-10-08 12:50, stoneunhinged wrote:

Or is there? Is there any information about Marcus that doesn't have Marcus at its original source?


Former Griffin agent Andy Anderson often appears on these tv specials to talk about Marcus. He does say there was a period in the 90s when they got a lot of calls around town about these 5,000 dollar checks suddenly "appearing" on roulette tables, and this is when he started pursuing Marcus.

For all we know he could have some sort of deal worked out with Marcus and they embellish a lot of this crap for the press. Who knows. They sure seem awful chummy, and Anderson's not the type of guy to pal around with thieves by any means. I think he'd still be trying to put him in jail if he could. He is that type of guy.

I know a guy who he had "the hots for" so to speak back in the 80s--I don't think they'll be sitting down for coffee to chuckle about the old days anytime soon.
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Vandy Grift
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Quote:
On 2008-10-08 13:49, Mr. Z wrote:
Don't be so quick to judge any of this. Working in a casino you see all sorts of weird stuff on a daily basis.


Well that what I was wondering. People are suspicious and they bet in weird ways sometimes. I don't play roulette, but maybe Mr Z could tell us if a dealer would even look askance at a seemingly oddball bet like that? And if they did start eyeballing you, could you diffuse the situation by laughing it off and saying "I'm superstious, I do that sometimes"?
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Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2008-10-08 14:20, Vandy Grift wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-10-08 13:49, Mr. Z wrote:
Don't be so quick to judge any of this. Working in a casino you see all sorts of weird stuff on a daily basis.


Well that what I was wondering. People are suspicious and they bet in weird ways sometimes. I don't play roulette, but maybe Mr Z could tell us if a dealer would even look askance at a seemingly oddball bet like that? And if they did start eyeballing you, could you diffuse the situation by laughing it off and saying "I'm superstious, I do that sometimes"?


No not really. Oddball bets are pretty common. It's an all-encompassing term, but dealers refer to it as "getting stroked."

Marcus said his crew was really sharp when it came to psychology and acting. People, especially casino employees, are easier to manipulate than you'd think.

To his credit though, in theory the move is great. Discovering the big check like that is going to stop everyone dead in their tracks, they call surveillance and look at the tape, and all they see is a tipsy guy making a bet and he's got a few nickels with his chocolates. Would they have any reason to to go back further in the tape to watch the guy's play?

Marcus contends that even when they got caught raking off the loser, they'd come out with the original $20 and considering the dealer never saw the chocolate they were safe. I just find it hard to believe that no one ever saw the check.

Might be one of the reasons why places like the Venetian use oversized checks for the higher-denoms.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Vandy Grift
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Thanks.

I think some of it would be how you come off towards the dealer. I would try to play it like a rube. Someone who is just in town for a little "fun" and is basically throwing chips around. If you don't come off too sharp, I wouldn't think it would raise any red flags if you did something a bit unorthodox in order to facilitate a bigger plan.

I'm sure dealers size people up and make snap judgements just like everyone else does. As soon as someone has made up their mind about you, you have a lot of freedom all of the sudden. Don't you?
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Mr. Z
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Yeah I'd agree.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Vandy Grift
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There is other part of that, and this I know for a fact.

When dealers are working, they are WORKING. They are doing their job. For those that don't work in a casino. Does your mind ever wander when you are doing your job? Are there ever days where you don't want to be there, where your mind is somewhere else?

These guys aren't machines, and some of the ones at the casinos here act like they would rather be anywhere but at work. They aren't always the most attentive people. I don't think dealing BJ for example is much more stimulating for the mind than working on a line that is punching out parts. I've never done it, but it dosen't look very exciting to me. I could see it getting old pretty quick.
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tommy
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There is an English fella from London who says he worked for Markus. He went to Vegas, went broke and was starving when Markus found him and got him doing stuff, and says he won a $100K+ but lost his nerve when they had to run out of the casnio one night. The fella was on that TV show, and he sounded like he was telling the truth to me.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2008-10-08 15:13, Vandy Grift wrote:
There is other part of that, and this I know for a fact.

When dealers are working, they are WORKING. They are doing their job. For those that don't work in a casino. Does your mind ever wander when you are doing your job? Are there ever days where you don't want to be there, where your mind is somewhere else?

These guys aren't machines, and some of the ones at the casinos here act like they would rather be anywhere but at work. They aren't always the most attentive people. I don't think dealing BJ for example is much more stimulating for the mind than working on a line that is punching out parts. I've never done it, but it dosen't look very exciting to me. I could see it getting old pretty quick.


Dealing 21 is the equivalent of hell (well some would argue the Big 6 is worse, I'll take that over 21). You're right in that it's like assembly line work, but factor in having to deal with obnoxious players who will !@#$% and moan about not winning, stiff you, and expect you to talk and entertain them the whole time to boot. You take a lot of abuse dealing that game. A friend of mine put it best, "Every time they lose it's your fault, and every time they win it's because of their superior card-playing ability."
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Vandy Grift
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Exactly. I can see it in their eyes. I know they hate it. lol!
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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