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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Trick coin trickery » » Jamie Schoolcraft Gaffs (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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silverking
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This has turned into just another political horses___i_t thread, and I'm surprised to see guys like Justin Miller joining in.

There is at least one other custom coin maker that equals Jamie on every front, and you ALL know that to be a HARD FACT.
I get tired of all the wasted bandwidth as folks outright lie in attempt to give one coin maker a leg up on some other coin maker they don't like.

Don't you guys have tricks to practice, or lawns to mow?

Give it a rest already.
Jimeh
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Quote:
On 2008-06-19 12:52, silverking wrote:
There is at least one other custom coin maker that equals Jamie on every front, and you ALL know that to be a HARD FACT.


You have my support on this silverking without question...
The Amazing Noobini
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Silverking, what you are referring to is going to look puzzling to a lot of readers here because it refers to things that have been said in other threads, since then deleted and even on other websites.

So what this here reads like as an isolated thread is a friendly discussion among satisfied Schoolcraft customers who are suddenly being accused by you of being part of a conspiracy against an outside person, the identity of whom is not mentioned at all. It doesn't read like politics at all up until your post.

I think I understand your point of view and it may not even be completely removed from my own. If there is a conspiracy then I wouldn't mind knowing about it. But as an isolated thread it just reads like you are suddenly bashing a bunch of happy people. Now this thread is slowly slipping onto the endangered species list as well. Pointlessly.

I usually watch a movie while having supper but nothing Hollywood makes can rival these recent reports from the coin war front lines. The steam is building up. Several people are already claiming to have supreme beings on their side. Which for sheer silliness does offer a certain entertainment value to the readers. Although there are genuine serious issues behind all of this, I know.

So my point to each side is... even tho I myself as a customer is happy to read open criticism about anyone who I may potentially buy from... since these fights are going to be deleted here on these forums anyway... can't we just skip it? It's so annoying to have all kinds of straight informative threads disappear because of politics.

Pardon the hippie "can't we all just get along" speech.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
silverking
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Noobini, my post says EXACTLY what I intended it to say.

.......That's why I clicked the "Submit" button.

You'll note my post doesn't say anybody is "better" or "worse" than anybody else. It simply points out some untruths in the above posts, and questions whether any of those untruths contribute in any way to the Café or its readers.

For any one individual to autonomously state that somebody is "best in the world, that's a fact" is an abuse of the entire concept of a subjective opinion. A subjective opinion is certainly something we're all welcome to have, but just because we might have one on any given topic doesn't excuse a person on the need to also remain honest.

So, to the point of my post above, it's untrue that there is nobody else in the world who can make coins to the same quality as Jamie Schoolcraft makes coins.

It's fundamentally untrue. And the widely available evidence doesn't remotely support the statement.

(BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, I have a 6 or 7 hundred bucks worth of Schoolcraft coin gaffs, and have a fat pending order from him as well, one that I'm looking very much forward to getting my hands on.
I have NO problem buying ANY coins from Jamie, but I do have a problem with folks not being honest in what they choose to say about the state of the custom coin industry.)
MagicAggie
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It's funny how everyone is trying so desperately to avoid the elephant in the room and not mention his name. I'll do so with the hope this thread will be locked or deleted. Since I voiced my opinion earlier in this thread about being happy with Jamie's work and the service I got, I'll also add that I've been very pleased with the items I've gotten from Todd. Todd Lassen is an excellent coin gaffer.

Todd provides very high quality work and great customer service and I've never been disappointed when dealing with him. Apparently others have had different experiences, I have not.

I don't know what the political agendas are on either side and don't really care. I just like to get quality coin gaffs when I need them. I really wish everyone could just get along...but I guess we're past that happening.
James Harrison
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I'm sure this won't help anyone decide, but Roy Kuepper does some excellent work with coin gaffs.

http://www.roykueppers.com


His work is on par with Schoolcraft's. (I can't compare it to Lassen's as I don't have any of his work.)

Roy's prices are great also.
silverking
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Although trying not to get into "names", I was certainly thinking of Todd, Roy and Auke when I posted above.

As well, Johnson has some great gaffs that are easily on par with any anywhere on specific gimmicks,(not all, but definitely some).

I also picked up a Tango magnetic S&S a while back.....and the work is fine, so much so that I was actually quite surprised when I first looked at it, and again, I'm not saying ALL Tango is on par with everybody else, only that it CAN be fine, usable work depending on the particular gaff you've purchased.

My real point is simply to remain honest in the discussion on coin gaffs, something that clearly wasn't happening in the first half of this thread.
The Wizard of Hearts
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I am astonished by the prices that Todd Lassen's coins command on eBay. Most often, they bring even more than retail. Not even Schoolcraft coins bring that much. What's with that? I've seen Presley Guitar's stuff, Connie Hayden's prime work go for pennies. But Lassen...he seems to be the eBay price king. What do eBay bidders know that we don't know?
jprace
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I was surprised at Todd's Ebay prices as well. Anyway, my teacher has a lot of Lassen's work and they are all excelent. I will be ordering from Lassen soon. I need a Lassen Locking Sliding Shell and a C/S/B.

Also, does anyone know if Todd increased the price for the sliding shell? My teacher bought one for $160 from Todd a while ago and now it's $300!?!?

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polygonsmagic
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Some sets are different than others. He has one set that shows $200 on his website. That is the original one he produced with Kohler.
Tom G
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There was an earlier thread (a month or two ago) with some people dissatisfied with Jamie's quality on items they received.
The Amazing Noobini
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What eBay bidders know is that Lassen is the Fabergé of magic, so to speak. They are very clearly the kind of artworks that will be around after we are gone.

However, we all know there are also eBay items out there that aren't what they claim to be. As far as I know, there are no certificates of authenticity. (At least, I hope not because that is kind of corny.) eBay is eBay. I would tread carefully.

I'm not surprised that Lassen's coins are rising in value as people realize that there aren't enough to go around. And if the man is back ordered up to his... posterior, then he may as well charge more as long as people are paying. Fair enough I think.

He does have an East African coin set which is quite reasonable. I'm sure it took less time to make than some of the other stuff. Again fair enough.

The problem for the customer is or will be that eventually collectors will have a lot of the good stuff on their shelves. As a young poor photographer I could never afford something like a nice Leica camera because rich middle aged men owned five each. And they were never put to real use. That is how the world is tho.

As far as honest unbiased discussions go, we are never going to see that in a forum where everybody have so many friends they need to be loyal to. I think it is a shame that threads disappear as I feel that people here are able to both stand for what they say without being protected from themselves, and also able to take criticism.

Finally I still don't think a thread where Schoolcraft customers talk about how they have been very satisfied with his work should be seen as an insult to someone else. Even if they think that his work is "the best". People express themselves like that. If that wasn't allowed then people couldn't for instance be sports fans. "The Lakers are my favorite team among all who I recognize as being equal in every way".
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Tom G
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Good post Noobini, they certainly have the right to say Jamie's the best, if they've seen the same items from the other makers. It's like saying Bikes are
the best cards and never handling another deck.
silverking
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This particular "discussion" often reads like it's being held by a bunch of 5 year old boys arguing about whose bicycle or baseball glove is the "best".
jprace
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Yes, Todd Lassen does sell a set for $200, but that only contains one milled down coin, not all three. For David Regal's trick using the shell, all three coins should be milled down. I think it would just be easier for all three to be milled.
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organicmagician
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The prices on the website are not entirely accurate. Silver is at a historic high right now and Todd is, quite reasonably raising his prices to meet demand. He was joking on his blog the other day about just selling his stuff on eBay because its so expensive. I know he has sold some stuff on eBay in the past. The fact that he continues to offer stuff at the prices he does when he could charge double is an indication of how he values his customers and respects them. It may be tough to get his stuff and you may have to wait months or years for an order to be completed, but that is what people are willing to do. There is a good reason.

Incidentally, if you search, there are tons of threads on Todd Lassen and Jamie Schoolcraft, including plenty where their relative merits and problems are discussed. I think its reasonable that Brooks, et all delete threads if they get nasty. One of mine was deleted the other day and so was the nasty one that garnered that response. That's fair and I've chimed in plenty of times criticizing flaws in Jamie's stuff or discussing my appreciation for Lassen artwork. None of those posts has ever been deleted.

As per the above comments, there is history between all of these people and there are very clear camps. Todd is a really nice, generous guy, but no doubt he has gotten into some serious drama with a number of people. Clearly he is not blameless. But, if you have had the privilege of playing with or owning a bunch of Lassen stuff and you compare it to Jamie's, Roy's or anyone else's, you will come to your own conclusions. In my mind, Todd is far and away the best and I've seen a lot of stuff from all of them. I think a lot of top coin guys like Dave Neighbors would agree. Todd also has originated a lot of the most cutting edge gaffs. He has taken genius ideas like Kohler's and added his unique engineering/mechanical genius to make something incredible (no knock on Bob or anyone else intended). You may notice that Jamie and Auke not only use some of his ideas, but even the same coins, because he has an eye for beautiful combinations.

So, that's the millionth time I've talked about this. But, I love great gaffs and have looked at a lot of them. And, someone please clear one thing up for me: I know its perfectly reasonable based on personal experience to prefer someone other than Todd based on experience with the coins or his personality. How can you blame Steve Brooks for disliking a guy who says harsh things about him? But, why are so many people chiming about this that have no idea what they are talking about, having never owned/played with a good wide selection of gaffs from all of these guys? I like the democratic nature of this site, but as Simon Lovell always complains, the worst thing about these internet forums is that people form/offer these strong opinions about subjects with which they have little or no experience.
jordanl
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I find this topic tiring, and the discussions here remind me of cable "news" much of the time. Compare a 3CM and a Triple Threat side by side, you might end up agreeing with Justin's opinion. I came to a different conclusion.
The Amazing Noobini
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I don't the people who offer the really strong opinions do so based on little or no experience on the subject.

Those who chime in without being directly involved are perhaps potential gaff buyers who find this conflict situation very difficult to deal with. I think a lot of people don't know what to think or who to trust.

Say you want to buy a coin set and that you aren't able or willing to just buy several identical things from several craftsmen/dealers to compare them. You need to choose something based on online information because you simply cannot afford to go badly wrong with things that costs hundreds of Dollars.

Now then... you look at impressive web site photos and claims here and there and you want to buy something nice that will last you for years. Everything looks fine so far. But what to choose?

You browse the forum and suddenly you read people saying that one person frequently delivers unusable products and that the online info to the contrary is misleading. And others again are saying that no... you do need to buy from person A because person B lets you wait a year and maybe never intends to send something at all if he doesn't for some reason like you personally. And what about person C and person D who some claim are brilliant and other are ready to ridicule for their alleged poor workmanship. And who stole what from whom? Those stories goes in several directions.

It is a very frustrating situation for those who do NOT have any sort of die hard loyalty to one "camp" and who simply need to figure out what to buy or not. With no prior experience. It does look a little like magic craftsmen are all madly ranting vengeful plagiarizing primadonnas who get occasional messages from God telling them how to deal with the customers. It would be very bizarre were it all true.

People obviously should make up their own minds but when they cannot compare these things side by side it is difficult to know what to think at this point.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Steve Landavazo
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I still like Jamie Schoolcraft's coins regardless of opinions that differ. Steve
Courage is the willingness to be afraid and act anyway!
taller8
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I've purchased flippers from both gaffers and have been pleased with each product.
I just wasn't that crazy about the flipper coin in general.

I've gotton to that point where I don't like to rely on mechanisms in magic tricks. That's why I hate Rough and Smooth in cards, etc.

But I just think there is a consistent attention to detail that remains intact all the time with Todd. That is why his stuff is selling at such high prices. People know what they are going to get. Assuming they have the Lassen logo.

But in all fairness, I've been pleased with the Schoolcraft Flipper and shell set I purchased.

I do hope collectors don't take hold of this market.
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