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JackScratch
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"fact /fækt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fakt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.
5. Law. Often, facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence. Compare question of fact, question of law.
—Idioms"

o·pin·ion /əˈpɪnyən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-pin-yuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.
4. Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
-Dictionary.com

There seems to be a serious issue in understanding the difference between these two in this forum so I thought it prudent to post this. If I say that Water is made of Hydrogen and Oxygen, then that is a fact. If I say that water is made of bubblegum and bailing wire, that is also a fact, albeit an incorrect one. If I say that water is pretty, that is an opinion. There is little point is debating opinion as they are ALWAYS subjective. If I say that water is pretty, the actual meaning of that statement is that the view of water pleases me in some way. Not that the view of water has some inherent quality that is pleasing to all people. Opinions are pretty indisputable, though presenting new perspectives is usually welcome. In the event that someone presents a fact, something which can actually be shown to be true or not, then calling it opinion does not make it so. If someone presents a fact, it is of course open to contradiction, but using logical fallacies is not the way to do it.
A list of logical fallacies can be found in the Harbrace College Handbook.

The list of Fallacies.
Non Sequitur
Hasty Generalization
Ad Hominem (a real favorite in these forums)
Bandwagon
Circular Reasoning
Red Herring
Post Hoc, Ergo Procter Hoc
Either....or Fallacy
False Analogy (one I tend to be guilty of)
Equivocation

Feel free to rebut any statement I ever make, do not feel free to use these methods to do so. If, on the other hand, you feel that something I have said declares your opinion incorrect, then keep in mind that I have just as much right to have that opinion as you did to have the opinion I allegedly declared invalid in the first place, thus attacking me for doing so is hypocrisy.
kosmoshiva
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... to which I'll add two of my favourite truisms [troo-is-ums]:
'He who shouts the loudest gets heard,'
and
'In cyberspace no one can hear you ...'
never mind ...
;)
Don't forget to breathe.
Jaz
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Drew says, "If I say that water is made of bubblegum and bailing wire, that is also a fact, albeit an incorrect one."

How can something be a fact if it's incorrect? Maybe in a deluded mind it's a fact.

Right or wrong you certainly do have the right to voice your opinions.
It's when folks suggest that thier opinions are indeed facts and that other folks opinions are invalid nonsense that discussions turn to arguements.
Doug Higley
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The list of Fallacies. (Avail. at Safeway)

Non Sequitur (Bottled in a rather obscure region of France, somewhat flavorless but can have a slight twist finish.)

Hasty Generalization ( Similar to 'Total' but comes in bags rather than boxes. Non-Sweetened.)

Ad Hominem (a real favorite in these forums) Similar to Hominy Grits but uglier.

Bandwagon (In the Deoderant isle.)

Circular Reasoning (A Natural Laxative which can be found on isles 12...3...6 and 9)

Red Herring (Looks great on the plate, but this dish has little substance. Most often served with Hoc.)


Post Hoc, Ergo Procter (sic) Hoc ie: Propter Hoc...perenial favorites on the Toy racks and occasionally in the machines in the front of the store....sometimes sold as 'Slippery Slope'

Either....or Fallacy (Out of stock or on order)

False Analogy (Similar to Olives but with their Pimentoes hanging out)

Equivocation: A Canadian Import that goes well with the previous item. A not so subtle 'finish' however allows for regional embellishments. Canned or Fresh, ususally out of date.
Higley's Giant Flea Pocket Zibit
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.


Some dictionaries do far more damage than good for the student. If yours has such definitions you may wish to seek better.

The serious student is well advised to seek out and refer to dictionaries which make plain the distinctions between "right", "correct" and "true".
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Chessmann
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There seems to be a trend, maybe born of political correctness - perhaps not - that encourages people to treat everyone's opinion with equal validity ("That is my opinion, and it is just as valid as yours...").

Problem is, if I want an opinion on, say, lifestyles in ancient Rome, I am going to take the opinion on a scholar who has studied it for 30 years and is known for his accuracy over the opinion of 19 year-old Joe the Burger Flipper.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Rupert Bair
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Quote:
On 2007-12-16 11:06, Chessmann wrote:
Problem is, if I want an opinion on, say, lifestyles in ancient Rome, I am going to take the opinion on a scholar who has studied it for 30 years and is known for his accuracy over the opinion of 19 year-old Joe the Burger Flipper.


Bit harsh...why not take the opinion of both? Listening doesn't cost anything. And you don't have to agree with his opinion. When Mozart was 5 he wrote twinkle twinkle little star. Some child prodigy's will out smart you my friend. You can learn something from anyone regardless of age, sex, race, job title...

However the opinion seems a little sketchy. I'd say its more of an onion but that of coarse is just my opinion..onion. Theres no pi in onion! that's an opinion for your onion. You can have that one for free.

Actually no!...paypal me some money, works slow and I'm a freekin' genius.
Jerrine
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Definitions are definitely not very magical so this is in the right place.

The definitions are by my understanding Jack's opinions, therefore I choose to exercise my rights as an American sentient being and redefine them. I'm keeping the real, true, secret, and completely valid descriptions of these words close to the vest for now. It will make the trouble you guys will have understanding me all that much more fun. Who knows, maybe we can argue about my crackpot ideas.
P.T. Murphy
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“Facts are many, but the truth is one." ~ Rabindranath Tagore
P.T. Murphy
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Rupert Bair
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Anyone seen my onion?
Rupert Roach
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I have always wondered what the "truth" is. Can you tell me? If not that, then what would be "correct," or "right"? It is doubtful you are able.
Rupert Roach
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Quote:
On 2007-12-16 11:06, Chessmann wrote:
I am going to take the opinion on a scholar who has studied it for 30 years and is known for his accuracy over the opinion of 19 year-old Joe the Burger Flipper.


Actually, I prefer the burger guy. He's seen it all and, like you, has opinions on everything. Plus, he's my cousin, or my brother -- Oops, sorry, he's actually my sister and he knows what he's talkin' about. Do you?
magicgeorge
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Jack, how can you think this is true when clearly this is the time of year when you should be planting your onions. You always make posts like this. How can we trust the words of a self-confessed scratchy person?
Come on boys, lets get him.
I disagree and I'm usually right and therefore you're probably wrong, for goodness sake, you haven't even read the Hepherbert-Wenkelhousen theories of debate that would rate most of these fallacies as legitimate.

The Café went down shortly after you started this thread, are we expected to think that is a coincidence? Either your post caused it or it was caused by your post.
Your points are like the leaves on a tree. In autumn the leaves fall. Therefore your argument will get kicked by children in wellies.

You argued well. A well contains a rusty bucket. A rusty bucket is full of holes. A whole is two halves. Two halves is a small round. A pea is small and round. therefore your argument is a pea.

I think that proves my point.

George
P.T. Murphy
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Quote:
On 2007-12-16 21:29, magicgeorge wrote:

You argued well. A well contains a rusty bucket. A rusty bucket is full of holes. A whole is two halves. Two halves is a small round. A pea is small and round. therefore your argument is a pea.

George

CROWD: A witch! A witch! A witch! We've got a witch! A witch!
VILLAGER #1: We have found a witch, might we burn her?
CROWD: Burn her! Burn!
BEDEMIR: How do you know she is a witch?
VILLAGER #2: She looks like one.
BEDEMIR: Bring her forward.
WITCH: I'm not a witch. I'm not a witch.
BEDEMIR: But you are dressed as one.
WITCH: They dressed me up like this.
CROWD: No, we didn't... no.
WITCH: And this isn't my nose, it's a false one.
BEDEMIR: Well?
VILLAGER #1: Well, we did do the nose.
BEDEMIR: The nose?
VILLAGER #1: And the hat -- but she is a witch!
CROWD: Burn her! Witch! Witch! Burn her!
BEDEMIR: Did you dress her up like this?
CROWD: No, no... no ... yes. Yes, yes, a bit, a bit.
VILLAGER #1: She has got a wart.
BEDEMIR: What makes you think she is a witch?
VILLAGER #3: Well, she turned me into a newt.
BEDEMIR: A newt?
VILLAGER #3: I got better.
VILLAGER #2: Burn her anyway!
CROWD: Burn! Burn her!
BEDEMIR: Quiet, quiet. Quiet! There are ways of telling whether
she is a witch.
CROWD: Are there? What are they?
BEDEMIR: Tell me, what do you do with witches?
VILLAGER #2: Burn!
CROWD: Burn, burn them up!
BEDEMIR: And what do you burn apart from witches?
VILLAGER #1: More witches!
VILLAGER #2: Wood!
BEDEMIR: So, why do witches burn?
[pause]
VILLAGER #3: B--... 'cause they're made of wood...?
BEDEMIR: Good!
CROWD: Oh yeah, yeah...
BEDEMIR: So, how do we tell whether she is made of wood?
VILLAGER #1: Build a bridge out of her.
BEDEMIR: Aah, but can you not also build bridges out of stone?
VILLAGER #2: Oh, yeah.
BEDEMIR: Does wood sink in water?
VILLAGER #1: No, no.
VILLAGER #2: It floats! It floats!
VILLAGER #1: Throw her into the pond!
CROWD: The pond!
BEDEMIR: What also floats in water?
VILLAGER #1: Bread!
VILLAGER #2: Apples!
VILLAGER #3: Very small rocks!
VILLAGER #1: Cider!
VILLAGER #2: Great gravy!
VILLAGER #1: Cherries!
VILLAGER #2: Mud!
VILLAGER #3: Churches -- churches!
VILLAGER #2: Lead -- lead!
ARTHUR: A duck.
CROWD: Oooh.
BEDEMIR: Exactly! So, logically...,
VILLAGER #1: If... she.. weighs the same as a duck, she's made of wood.
BEDEMIR: And therefore--?
VILLAGER #1: A witch!
CROWD: A witch!
BEDEMIR: We shall use my larger scales!
[yelling]
BEDEMIR: Right, remove the supports!
[whop]
[creak]
CROWD: A witch! A witch!
WITCH: It's a fair cop.
CROWD: Burn her! Burn! [yelling]
BEDEMIR: Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?
ARTHUR: I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
BEDEMIR: My liege!
ARTHUR: Good Sir knight, will you come with me to Camelot,
and join us at the Round Table?
BEDEMIR: My liege! I would be honored.
ARTHUR: What is your name?
BEDEMIR: Bedemir, my leige.
ARTHUR: Then I dub you Sir Bedemir, Knight of the Round Table.


_______________________________________________________________________


I dub thee Sir Scratch-a-lot Knight of the Snooker Table
P.T. Murphy
www.ptmurphy.com
Chessmann
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Quote:

CROWD: A witch! A witch! A witch! We've got a witch! A witch!
VILLAGER #1: We have found a witch, might we burn her?
CROWD: Burn her! Burn!
BEDEMIR: How do you know she is a witch?
VILLAGER #2: She looks like one.



A true modern classic, if ever there was one!
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
JackScratch
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Quote:
On 2007-12-16 11:06, Chessmann wrote:
There seems to be a trend, maybe born of political correctness - perhaps not - that encourages people to treat everyone's opinion with equal validity ("That is my opinion, and it is just as valid as yours...").

Problem is, if I want an opinion on, say, lifestyles in ancient Rome, I am going to take the opinion on a scholar who has studied it for 30 years and is known for his accuracy over the opinion of 19 year-old Joe the Burger Flipper.


Fallacy: Ad Hominem: Attacking the person who presents an issue rather than dealing logically with the issue itself. A 19 year old Burger Flipper is entirely capable of being correct, and A Historical Specialist is entirely capable of being wrong. The logical approach is to listen to both thoughts and deal with the thoughts themselves, rather than judging correctness based solely or in part on the source of the information. In logical reasoning, the source of the thought has no merit, what so ever.
JackScratch
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Quote:
On 2007-12-16 21:29, magicgeorge wrote:
Jack, how can you think this is true when clearly this is the time of year when you should be planting your onions. You always make posts like this. How can we trust the words of a self-confessed scratchy person?
Come on boys, lets get him.
I disagree and I'm usually right and therefore you're probably wrong, for goodness sake, you haven't even read the Hepherbert-Wenkelhousen theories of debate that would rate most of these fallacies as legitimate.

The Café went down shortly after you started this thread, are we expected to think that is a coincidence? Either your post caused it or it was caused by your post.
Your points are like the leaves on a tree. In autumn the leaves fall. Therefore your argument will get kicked by children in wellies.

You argued well. A well contains a rusty bucket. A rusty bucket is full of holes. A whole is two halves. Two halves is a small round. A pea is small and round. therefore your argument is a pea.

I think that proves my point.

George


This post is a true work of fallacious art. I applaud your work with great sincerity.
Jerrine
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Quote:
On 2007-12-17 10:45, JackScratch wrote:
In logical reasoning, the source of the thought has no merit, what so ever.


Sooooooooooo should you fall desperately ill the smartest and most logical thing to do would be to take the time to poll your garbage men and the paperboy, what with seeing them more often than say a medical care giver of your choice, and carefully weigh their diagnosis against all you got from the convenience store clerk. After all you would be taking logical steps towards health, understanding first the great principle that the source of the thought has no merit, what so ever. I'd talk to my mailman too. I heard he has thoughts all over the place, O.K. I'll admit most of them involve poisoning dogs, but knowing the source of the thought has no merit, what so ever, that would not bother me one bit. I wouldn't recommend that anyone else do the same. Other people can't really grasp the totality of complete logic and might end up room temperature.
Rupert Bair
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George is one if the foremost pea philosophers in Ireland...if he claims your nonsense is a pea...he's right. Just give them a chance!
P.T. Murphy
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The Irish are very well known for their fallacious arts...you should try it sometimes Mr. Scratch. You take yourself and your facts much too seriously...you ain't all that and a box of chips...and we all know it.
P.T. Murphy
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