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skinnyJon
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I have an opinion on everything, if I don't know the facts I'll make them up. And that's a fact in my opinion.

It's my opinion that I don't have a long enough attention span to read these posts.

"It's anchorman not anchorwoman, and that's a scientific fact!"
KC Cameron
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Stone & Chessman

It is nice to hear people who actually know what they are talking about when discussing philosophy and logic here in the Café. By saying you guys are correct, I make myself the supreme judge of logic. *G* Actually, I bow to your efforts in the field.

I do have one question. What does going to a burger flipper or a scholar for advice have to do with logic? I agree that while flipper MAY have better information, the chances are so small as to make it a waste of time - but that is not logic is it? How would you diagram it? It has been 20 years since college . . .

As for those that would weigh what the burger guy says against the scholar - doesn't that make YOU the expert - above both, since YOU are deciding what is correct? Saturday a child told me I was the best magician in the world. Obviously she is in the position to make that judgment - and she is right! *G*

Opinions (and facts) may be relative, but that does not make them equal. Nor does that mean they are correct in ANY situation.

Chessman & Stone, anytime you are in Raleigh I would be honored to have a beer with you.



-The best magician the WORLD! (and Supreme Logician!)

kerry
Chessmann
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Quote:
On 2007-12-24 18:52, CaptainKid wrote:
As for those that would weigh what the burger guy says against the scholar - doesn't that make YOU the expert - above both, since YOU are deciding what is correct?


If we were deciding with certainty *what* was correct, then you would be..."correct" ;^)

I remember taking an English exam once. All essay. I had some different opinions from the teacher. During the exam, It didn't matter which of us was right, I knew I darn well better write what he wanted if I wanted to make the grade!

Have a good day, Cap'n!
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2007-12-24 19:10, Chessmann wrote:
I remember taking an English exam once. All essay. I had some different opinions than the teacher. During the exam, I knew it didn't matter which of us was right, I knew I darn well better write what he wanted if I wanted to make the grade!

Have a good day, Cap'n!


Lousy teachers, if you're right about that. Some of the best law school grades I received, from some very good professors, were on papers/exams arguing strenuously against positions I knew they had.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2007-12-24 18:52, CaptainKid wrote:
Stone & Chessman

I do have one question. What does going to a burger flipper or a scholar for advice have to do with logic? I agree that while flipper MAY have better information, the chances are so small as to make it a waste of time - but that is not logic is it? How would you diagram it? It has been 20 years since college . . .

As for those that would weigh what the burger guy says against the scholar - doesn't that make YOU the expert - above both, since YOU are deciding what is correct? Saturday a child told me I was the best magician in the world. Obviously she is in the position to make that judgment - and she is right! *G*



I believe that his exact point is that the burger flipper/scholar examples has NOTHING to do with logic. Jack sometimes appears to suggest that logic is the only useful knowledge-acquisition tool; Chessman provided a counter-example.

As for weighing the advice of both, I'm not sure that makes you the "expert," per se; however, different people have different ideas about things. Exposing yourself to their ideas, then seeing which rings true, doesn't mean you're necessarily asserting expertise.

As an example, for the chess players out there, Bobby Fischer preferred the opening move 1. e4, while Garry Kasparov preferred 1. d4. You can read much theory by either player about the rationale for his choice, but ultimately, you're probably going to choose one or the other. That doesn't mean that you're suggesting that you know more about chess than the player with whom you didn't side.

Similarly, a person might come to religion later in life after being exposed to scholarship written by Christians, Jews, atheists, etc. If that person became, say, a Jew, that wouldn't imply that he considered himself more of a theology expert than the Christian scholar, but rather that someone else's ideas rang more true.

You stand a better chance of ascribing to better ideas, though, if you expose yourself to the ideas of people who came before you and organized their thoughts than if you just try to come up with them on your own.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Chessmann
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Quote:
On 2007-12-24 21:01, LobowolfXXX wrote:
As an example, for the chess players out there, Bobby Fischer preferred the opening move 1. e4, while Garry Kasparov preferred 1. d4. You can read much theory by either player about the rationale for his choice, but ultimately, you're probably going to choose one or the other. That doesn't mean that you're suggesting that you know more about chess than the player with whom you didn't side.


Fascinating example!

Bobby Fishcer called 1. e4, the "Best by test." That was his opinion. Other champions used mostly 1. d4.

Even though he strongly favored 1. e4, Fischer (very rarely) brought out another opening move for surprise, and to give his future opponents something to think about, as well.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
JackScratch
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The point of this particular fallacy is the idea that, who someone is makes their argument right or wrong, or the premise of their statement right or wrong. Anyone can make an incorrect statement about anything, regardless of where their information comes from. Anyone can make a correct statement about anything regardless of the source of their information. It is, therefore, a logical fallacy to assume that someone is correct or incorrect based solely on who they are or what their credentials are. I have never said, nor suggested that going to a doctor isn't great inductive reasoning.

As to the idea of receiving medical advise from a garbage man and a doctor and deciding that an all fruitcake diet is a good idea because the garbage man tells me so. Choosing medical advise because it comes from someone who is the theoretical opposite of a doctor is just as Ad Hominim as choosing what the doctor says in the first place. If a correct answer to an issue can be arrived at, then it can certainly be arrived at without using the credentials of those presenting the sides as weight to their position. If all a person has to offer to add weight to their position is their credentials, that does not mean they are wrong, but it does mean further evidence will be required before their word should be taken over someone who does offer stronger evidence in support of their case, again, regardless of their credentials.
Chessmann
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I don't believe a 3rd party can technically be accused of Ad Hominem. Gathering and weighing evidence based on the perceived level of knowledge of 2 individuals is not Ad Hominem (at least not as I learned it).

Ad Hominem, if I remember right, means, "to the man". Arguing the man, not the argument. It is normally used by those engaged in some sort of debate against each other. One side (or both sides) tries to bolster their position by tearing down the opposition rather than the opposition's position.

A 3rd party is not engaged in a debate (well, not in this case), but is gathering information. Gathering information is not arguing against a person to bolster a position he doesn't yet have.

However, I make no claims to be an authority on this. It is how I learned it, but there may be other applications I am not aware of.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
stoneunhinged
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One more time: WHO CARES ABOUT FALLACIES?

Do you care more about the truth or how one goes about getting to it?

If someone has spoken the truth, do you point out the flaw in their logic?

We are here at the Café to discuss magic, not logic.

Let me paraphrase (because I don't have my book at hand, and because it's early Christmas morning so I will be with my family soon and don't have time to look it up) a passage from Xenophon's Memorabilia, in which Socrates explains what philosophy (originally, nothing more than "a love of knowledge") is:

"Me and my friends get together. And we take a good book, and we read it together. And when one of us finds something useful, we count it as a very great gift."

Note: it's friends getting together to discuss things.

Note: there's nothing about logic. Only what's useful.

Note: the knowledge is a great gift.

Some people, like myself, come to a forum to meet with (virtual) friends and discuss things, hoping to get something useful which we can count as a gift.

People, I'll repeat one more thing and then leave this thread alone: Truth, and not necessarily the real Truth but the truth we find useful, is the point. Not syllogisms. What is useful. Not syllogisms. What is a gift. Not syllogisms.

I weep for those who cannot see that. Socrates--my hero--would also weep.

Merry Christmas. I'm going to my family now.

Jeff
Steve_Mollett
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Criticalthinking.org
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Rupert Bair
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I'm not the cleverest guy here, I am one of them however, but I know a real smart fella wouldn't try to prove how clever he is all the time. He is content with what he knows and he shares his knowledge to wonder people, not to argue with them for no cause but to prove something for his own selfish desires. Inadequacy?
JackScratch
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I'm getting that a lot of people here have no need or desire for logic. It's a shortcoming on my part that I had to create this thread to learn that, when the evidence of that fact has been in just about every other thread in this forum. Using failures in logic to make your point lessens both you and your reader/listener. Fallacies are how incorrect assumptions are supported. I didn't start this thread to point out how smart I am, this is highschool level stuff.
Rupert Bair
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“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”

LOGIC??!! Logic is only necessary for people who can't have fun, they understand the concept of fun but they can't have it themselves. Logic is overrated and should be used sparely.

“Logic is like the sword--those who appeal to it shall perish by it.”
-Samuel Butler
Josh Riel
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Quote:
On 2007-12-25 12:42, JackScratch wrote:
I'm getting that a lot of people here have no need or desire for logic.


Yes, you are probably getting that. It's a terribly illogical conclusion, but one founded on the type of argument you present. Were you to accept that fact that others had valid points, you would go against the very point you are presenting.

Most everyone understands logic, which is why you meet with so much opposition. I like watching car crashes, keep fighting the power.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
Chessmann
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Quote:
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”


Both are needed.

Quote:
LOGIC??!! Logic is only necessary for people who can't have fun, they understand the concept of fun but they can't have it themselves.


???

Quote:
“Logic is like the sword--those who appeal to it shall perish by it.”
-Samuel Butler


I don't believe Butler meant, "Never use logic".
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Rupert Bair
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What I'm saying Chessman is I'm having a lot more fun with out logic Smile Analyzing each paragraph is uncool!!
Chessmann
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Quote:
On 2007-12-25 17:28, Matt Colman wrote:
What I'm saying Chessman is I'm having a lot more fun with out logic Smile


Know what you mean, there, Matt! :^)
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Steve_Mollett
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Actually, a minority make a serious study of logic.
Critical thinking is not taught by our educational systems.

Again: criticalthinking.org
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
JackScratch
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Not only are logic and imagination both needed, but they are far from mutually exclusive. Fun is relative, if you get enjoyment from ignorance and stagnation, then I imagine logic to be pretty not fun. If you enjoy learning, growth, and progress, then logic is the penultimate in fun, as it is required for those things. Without logical thought, our society would still be working on the whole climbing out of the trees thing.
Jerrine
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Quote:
On 2007-12-25 12:42, JackScratch wrote:
I'm getting that a lot of people here have no need or desire for logic.


It's not logic so much as it's the "special" logic I have no need or desire for.
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