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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Just My Opinion (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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KC Cameron
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Drew,

Unlike many, I believe you are making a strong effort to be logical, and that is commendable. Logic is needed, and sorely missed by most.

Logic is a tool, a very useful tool, but it had nothing to do with getting us out of trees. It is the antithesis of imagination. It does not discover anything, only reveals what is already known. It is the intuitive leaps (that is creativity) that has made us what we are. After the leap, we use logic to back-track. Logic is a method to describe the world, not discover the world. The use of logic, and only logic, can only lead to ignorance and stagnation. Fortunately, that is impossible, for logic itself must rest on presuppositions, or as what most of us call "faith". That makes logic a sturdy house built on sand. Useful for what it is, but far from a pillar of reality.

While many are on one extreme and just seem to emote, forgetting logic, for others "logic" has become a religion. The true essence has been twisted into something it is not, and things have been added that never had anything to do with logic. These people ignore accepted scholars of logic and hold fast to their faith. Here we have a professor of logic, a lawyer (law school is all about critical thinking, not so much about the law), at least one other with a undergrad degree in philosophy, all politely telling you that you are missing the boat. Take a hint. They are not disagreeing with logic, just what you are doing, which on the surface closely resembles logic.

It takes a certain amount of “special” to tell a philosophy professor his arguments are fallacious but not say how they are fallacious. Look up “ad hominem’. By all means disagree, I am sure he will have no problem with that. Just back up what you claim instead of emoting in the language of logic.

Before you say this is fallacious too, I must point what I have written here IS NOT logical, just descriptive.

BTW your avatar is very cool.

Lobo
By making myself as a judge of anything, I put myself in the seat of the expert. We are doing what the child did when I was pronounced "The best magician in the world". The whole argument is a joke, for how can a seeker be an expert?? How do I know who is the expert without knowing as much if not more than the ones I judge? Things just ARE, "logic" and "expert" are but means of inadequate communication - convenient pegs to hang our hat and help keep us sane.

How do I know this? I am the judge, thus the "super" expert, of course! "Reality" is "My Reality", there is nothing more. *G* Thus speaketh Kerry.
JackScratch
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All very nice, never the less poor, weak, misleading debates are being made in this forum based solely on fallacies. I'm all for philosophy, imagination, and creativity. I'm a huge fan of inductive reasoning, as well as deductive. I'm no member of a pointy eared sci-fi race. What this thread is meant to address is a weak writing/debating tactic being used and abused by entirely too many people in this forum. I'm not saying "logic and logic alone for logic sake". I'm saying "Please stop basing your position on a nasty pile of fallacious logic." The use of fallacious is not an assurance of incorrectness, but if fallacies are the only thing one can come up with to support ones position, it is very much time to reevaluate that position.
Chessmann
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I have had a few debates here on the Café, and always run into bad arguments, people not reading clearly what I posted, etc.... I always try to re-read my posts to make sure they make sense, but I have had to come back from time to time because I made a mistake. Because one time I accidentally quoted one sentence too many in the paragraph I was replying to, and that made it look like I was responding to something I wasn't. It happens.

Drew, I understand your feelings on this. Recently, I was talking with someone who used the "I have a couple of bad examples of people who hold to your position, so that means your position is wrong" fallacy. Showing this to the guy didn't matter, it seemed. Appearing to win is often more important.

We are all going to run into this, sometimes from people who know better. When faced with this, I have found it is often best to say, "I'm more than happy to let others read what we have written and draw their own conclusions". More often than not, I do this when I'm just too plain tired to continue slogging through the issue!
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2007-12-27 10:21, JackScratch wrote:
What this thread is meant to address is a weak writing/debating tactic being used and abused by entirely too many people in this forum.


Well who made you the sheriff? As I said, I agree with most of what you say. What I disagree with--and most strenuously so--is your right to set the rules for debate. It's a public forum. There are geniuses and idiots here. You should live with that fact. Why not? Why not accept the frailty and idiosyncracies of human nature? Why not live with your fellow human beings on their level?

Go find Olympus, and maybe you'll be happy with the debate here. Otherwise, you'll be arguing with human beings, frailties and fallacies and all. Learn to enjoy it, my friend! Life is cool. Human beings are interesting. This forum--as long as it is about magicians helping magicians (or people being silly here in the "not so magical still..." fourm)--is full of life and vigor and friendship and even love.

I like the forum as it is. I have made friends here. I'd like to stay a while.

Jeff
Rupert Bair
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Is getting fallacies whilst driving illegal?
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2007-12-27 10:21, JackScratch wrote:
All very nice, never the less poor, weak, misleading debates are being made in this forum based solely on fallacies.



Has there been a post in recent history where a Forum member asserted:

"X is correct because authority Y said so"?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Chessmann
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Quote:
On 2007-12-27 10:21, JackScratch wrote:
All very nice, never the less poor, weak, misleading debates are being made in this forum based solely on fallacies.


Drew, are you talking about 'on the Café' or 'in this particular thread'?
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
JackScratch
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I didn't make these rules. I didn't set these rules. They aren't "my rules". This is the English language. Actually, the rules of logic cross linguistic barriers. The rules pertaining to logical thought are the same all over the literary world.

As to where I'm talking about. I'm active in a few forums. Nowhere else do I find the kinds and frequency of abuses that I have been finding here lately. And yes, I mean all the parts of the Magic Café' that I pay any attention to.
Jerrine
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Busking is work.
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When in Rome.
calamari
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Oooh I know this one... do as the Romans do... but did'nt they crucify people... oh I see now, that was a perfect analogy...

please feel free to attack my logic, spelling and grammer.
"I came, I saw, SHE conquered." (The original Latin seems to have been garbled.)
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