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Dan Paulus
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Quote:
On 2007-12-19 11:34, tboehnlein wrote:
Before you LOL may I suggest you do a bit more research on the subject, you will find that the Bible has more documented historical support then any other document written during its period.


Trust me, I've done A LOT of study. I just came to different conclusions than you.

Payne wrote:
Quote:
Now, now be nice. He is after all right. The Bible states these events as fact and many people believe them to be true. Just as the ancient Greeks one time believed that Homer's Epic was factual history.


You're right Payne, I should be nice. BTW, I live in one of the cities you mention. I don't believe I'd be in harms way, but it can (and has) effected other aspects of my life and the life of my children.
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Payne
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Quote:
On 2007-12-19 13:05, tboehnlein wrote:
"Or perhaps we have learned too much Smile"

or chose not to be open to that which does not meet your personal needs or lifestyle.

Payne not meant to be a personal attack, just MY observation of nonbelievers in general, your comments in this category are generally well meant & expressed honestly.


Non believers don't have an exclusive on this type of behavior. Theists are just as guilty of going through life with blinders on. Seeing only that which they want to see and refusing to acknowledge any fact they come across that might make them question their personnel belief system.

I would instantly believe in a Deity if anyone could provide reasonable proof as to it's existence. So far no one has presented me with such evidence so I must remain skeptical. If you can present me with a reason as to why I should accept your God over Horus, Zeus or Odin I am willing to evaluate it.

And to assume that I refuse to acknowledge a divine being because I choose to engage in certain "personal needs or lifestyle" is disingenuous at best. I don't drink, smoke, do drugs or engage in any abhorrent behavior. I've been married to the same woman for nearly twenty-five years and am a contributing member of society. Most of my Atheist friends live a very similar lifestyles as well and are not the drugged out, lascivious hedonists you think we must be. We are just like you save for the fact that we don't believe in gods. We don't believe, not so that we can go out and commit immoral acts but simply because we find the evidence for such a being lacking.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
tboehnlein
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"Non believers don't have an exclusive on this type of behavior. Theists are just as guilty of going through life with blinders on."
Agreed, I have researched & studied plenty also & I have not been able to find evidence to prove to me that there is no GOD, I look at all that is around me & all evidence proves to me that our existence is not by accident, I understand that if the earth's axis was a degree differant our existence would be nill, if we were a fraction further or closer to the sun again we would be nothing, the credibility of the bible is found not in itself but in many external historical sources. A theist that accepts all that is told them w/o searching for the truth does have blinders on & is missing the relationship with God that God wishes us to have, no differant than having a neighbor next door that you never talk too, you can not develope a relationship with someone without asking questions & delving into their life.

"And to assume that I refuse to acknowledge a divine being because I choose to engage in certain "personal needs or lifestyle" is disingenuous at best."

Again I agree a poor choice of words on my part for the discussion, I did not mean to imply that your lifestyle is questionable by any means what I know of you is honorable, I was implying that to acknowledge a divine being is generally based on our own comfort levels and for some even the selection of the deity is made on what behaviors or mores are acceptable to that individual. For me it comes down to this, when I die if I am wrong then no big deal, but if my belief is correct then I would hate to be one that denied his existence & refused the salvation that he offered through his son Jesus.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2007-12-19 15:30, tboehnlein wrote:

I die if I am wrong then no big deal, but if my belief is correct then I would hate to be one that denied his existence & refused the salvation that he offered through his son Jesus.



Assuming you've chosen the correct Deity.

There are all sorts of God's worshipped by multitudes of people all of whom think they've got the right one.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
RevJohn
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[quote]On 2007-12-19 00:34, Payne wrote:
Quote:
I guess you'd have to be a Black Adder fan to get it.


Actually I am a Black Adder fan. You might find the magazine, "The Wittenburg Door" funny. I enjoy them cause they are one of the few religious magazines that don't take themselves to seriously. Or the website, "Ship of Fools," which again is a very humorous take on the church.

RevJohn
leftytheclown
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What the Barna goup presents is not relevant to the issue. If we have a creator that spoke the world into existence in the precise manner to support life on earth, then Arks, Axeheads, "a Great Fish" who swallowed Johah, feeding 5000 would be child's play to God. Jesus said, your sins are forgiven and the Pharisees took offense. Jesus then asked, "Is it easier to say your sins are forgiven or to heal." Jesus then healed the man.

No, the issue is, can you accept the concept of a creator? If not, there will not be any evidence that is credible. The "PHILOSOPHY of Atheism will not allow any God. So, any contrary evidence to naturalism is explained away--much like saying God did it, but using "Evolutin did it".

On to magic. If we present Gospel magic, we have to believe the Bible tells the truth, including miracles, and use stories just as Jesus did to draw people to God.
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Payne
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Quote:
On 2007-12-21 15:50, leftytheclown wrote:

No, the issue is, can you accept the concept of a creator? If not, there will not be any evidence that is credible. The "PHILOSOPHY of Atheism will not allow any God. So, any contrary evidence to naturalism is explained away--much like saying God did it, but using "Evolutin did it".



I know many Atheists who would dearly like to believe in a God and several who in fact used to believe in one. So your belief that our "PHILOSOPHY" precludes us from believing in such a being is not at all accurate.

We can accept the concept of a Creator we just have never found compelling evidence that their is one.

One can also believe that there are truths to be found in the Bible without it having to be true. Lessons can be learned from Shakespeare without accepting Macbeth as an actual person. I agree with Thomas Jefferson that all the tales of miracles in the Bible detract from and weaken the message. Much like how Mel Gibson focused on the gruesome final day of Christ's life and forgot all about the message he brought.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Terry Owens
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Wrong Mr. Payne, what Jesus went through to forgive your sins is what the message is about.

That's why it's so important that those of use who do Gospel work, strive to be as professional in our presentation as we can be.
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On 2007-12-21 17:27, Terry Owens wrote:

Wrong Mr. Payne, what Jesus went through to forgive your sins is what the message is about.



I always thought that the basic gist of Jesus' message was one of love and forgiveness, you know to love one another as you love yourself. At least that's what I got out of his teachings when I read the Bible. I don't see how being viciously beaten to death does anything to enhance that message.

But then that's why there are a multitude of different denominations isn't it. Everyone has their own idea of what Christ was trying to say.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Terry Owens
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This is not the forum to discuss this, but I would be happy to discus this with you privately
Payne
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Quote:
On 2007-12-21 20:22, Terry Owens wrote:
This is not the forum to discuss this, but I would be happy to discus this with you privately


Thanks for the offer but there's really no need as I'm happy with my life and belief system. I understand where your coming from I just don't see it the same way you do.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
leftytheclown
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Jesus' message was that He was the only way to know God. Our magical effects should reflect this.

And no Payne, it is the atheistic philosophy that precludes God. The materialist statement is: We assume that all matter to include living things come from natural causes. This is a philosophical statement (Not fact)and by definition eliminates any notion of a creator.

Again, the philosophy of Atheism eliminates the need for God, therefore any contraindications, such as no demonstrable evidence of life coming from non-life, has to be explained as "somehow" natural causes did it. To deny so, is to go against the tenets of your faith in materialism. Which makes me wonder why you hang out here so much with us spiritual guys. I know you say you are the loyal opposistion, but I hope it's more like there is more to this spiritualty group and you like it.

As Terry Seabrook (I think) said, "Break a String".
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robwar0100
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I have heard it said if you can believe the first five words of the (English) Bible, "In the beginning God created," then you can believe the rest of it.

That statement does not set out to prove God; the assumption is He exists and is real.

It takes more faith to believe in evolution than the Creator God who spoke the universe into existence.

Have a great Christmas,

Bobby
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Payne
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Quote:
On 2007-12-22 09:51, robwar0100 wrote:

It takes more faith to believe in evolution than the Creator God who spoke the universe into existence.



It's not a either or argument. Evolution doesn't automatically negate the existence of a higher power. Many theists believe that evolution was the mechanism that God used to create life on this planet. Really, the evidence for evolution is overwhelming and we see proof of it's existence everyday in the mutation of viruses. Simply shutting ones eyes and clamping ones hand over ones ears and shouting LA LA La at the top of ons lungs doesn't make evolution go away. To paraphrase a popular slam applied to Atheists by believers, "Only a fool says in his heart that there is no evolution."
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Joe Marotta
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I think we can all agree that micro-evolution exists, that is, variation within a specie (e.g; different types of dogs). Notice I said "within".

Macro-evolution, one specie becoming another different specie, does not exist. We do not see any evidence for this. Macro-evolution requires a tremendous leap of faith. If macro-evolution was true, there would be thousands of transitionary fossil forms available today showing the many changes that took place for one specie to evolve into a completely different specie.

If all the different species evolved from one specie, there would be thousands of thousands of these transitional fossil forms waiting to be discovered. Wouldn't we have found at least ONE by now? We haven't found one yet because they are not there to be found. Evolutionists repeat their mantra, "the evidence for evolution is overwhelming". They hope that constant repetition of that statement will cause everyone to believe it, despite the lack of actual evidence. Please don't just tell me there is overwhelming evidence. Produce the actual evidence.

Natural selection can only work on the genetic information present in the population of organisms; it cannot create new information. For example, since no known reptiles have genes for feathers, no amount of selection will produce a feathered reptile. Mutations in genes can only modify or eliminate existing structures, not create new ones.

If you've ever created something, a painting, a sculpture, a model, you know the joy and satisfaction you receive during the process of creating it. We take joy as it develops. We don't open a tube of paint, pick up a brush, and instantly there is a completely finished beautiful painting on the canvas. Our creative nature takes joy in the process of creating something.

I'll bet God, the ultimate Creator, took great pleasure and enjoyment while HE created all things step by step. God created the different species, and genetically programmed them with the ability for variation within their specie.

Professor Louis Bounoure, Director, National Center of Scientific Research states, "Evolution is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the process of science. It is useless."

In the Foreword to "Origin of Species" (100th edition), Sir Arthur Keith admitted, "Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable."
Steven Conner
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Hi Payne, the greatest Atheist of our time has even changed his mind. Must be something there.

Antony Flew, Former Atheist - Now Deist, Goes Beyond Deism Saying a Creator Was Involved in the Creation of Life.
"The New York Papers," Mark Twain once said,"have long known that no large question is ever really settled until I have been consulted; it is the way they feel about it, and they show it by always sending to me when they get uneasy. "
Payne
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Quote:
On 2007-12-22 15:58, Steven Conner wrote:
Hi Payne, the greatest Atheist of our time has even changed his mind. Must be something there.

Antony Flew, Former Atheist - Now Deist, Goes Beyond Deism Saying a Creator Was Involved in the Creation of Life.


Anthony Flew is hardly the "Greatest Afheist of our time" and he didin't become a Deist. His Ghost Writer apparently put words in Mr. Flews mouth that he never spoke.
The ongoin debate\scandel can be seen in part here.

http://geoffarnold.com/?p=1784

as the article says

"It’s a rather sad tale of an old man in his dotage, allowing himself to be exploited by others, to the point where he allowed his name to be put to a book which he didn’t even write"
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Steven Conner
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Quote:
On 2007-12-22 16:31, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-12-22 15:58, Steven Conner wrote:
Hi Payne, the greatest Atheist of our time has even changed his mind. Must be something there.

Antony Flew, Former Atheist - Now Deist, Goes Beyond Deism Saying a Creator Was Involved in the Creation of Life.


Anthony Flew is hardly the "Greatest Afheist of our time" and he didin't become a Deist. His Ghost Writer apparently put words in Mr. Flews mouth that he never spoke.
The ongoin debate\scandel can be seen in part here.

http://geoffarnold.com/?p=1784

as the article says

"It’s a rather sad tale of an old man in his dotage, allowing himself to be exploited by others, to the point where he allowed his name to be put to a book which he didn’t even write"


This wasn't an article but an interview. You can watch Mr. Flew.

http://www.leestrobel.com/videoserver/vi......belT2037
"The New York Papers," Mark Twain once said,"have long known that no large question is ever really settled until I have been consulted; it is the way they feel about it, and they show it by always sending to me when they get uneasy. "
Payne
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Read the article I linked. Mr. Flew is barely cognisant these days and is a shadow of his former self. He can't remember old colleagues or previous events in his life. Not a great choice for a poster child for Atheist conversion.
It's even sad and pathetic how Mt. Strobel is trying to bully the obviously ailing Mr. Flew into acknowledging that there is a personel God of some sort who actually cares about his creation. Fortunately Mr Flew was able to fend off the attack.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Steven Conner
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There was no attack and there is always excuses. But, I want to wish you and your family a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
"The New York Papers," Mark Twain once said,"have long known that no large question is ever really settled until I have been consulted; it is the way they feel about it, and they show it by always sending to me when they get uneasy. "
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