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C. Loubard
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After hearing people say, time and time again, you only need to move once during a nights game, I've finally decided to say something.

Admittedly, I've perpetuated the myth myself, because I just found it humorous to do so. However, after getting in an argument with a magician over it, I find myself trying to set the record straight.

Unless you can ring in a deck and cause someone to lose all their money, a cheater will move all night. it is a grind to make the money.

I am not sure where this tall-tale started, Vernon is my guess, but it is far from being true.

Show me someone who says otherwise and I'll show you someone who hasn't moved and is a liar.

nuff said
Clock
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Forte said something along the lines of, "Just knowing the location of only one card can give you a significant edge that beat a group of players over a period of time." Not the exact quote, but something along those lines. In certain games, I believe this to be true. He is hinting at the fact that you don't need to 'move' all night to gain an advantage. You won't win all the time, but you will have a significant edge.

I remember Vernon (off the top of my head) saying how just dealing one second, at the right time, when the stakes are high can be enough to get the money...

I believe that to be true to a degree...but how many huge hands like that do you see in a night? The situation has to be perfect (you are dealing, there's a huge pot, and you peak a good card).

I think Vernon was saying wait for the best and most profitable times to move...which is a valid point. But again, what if there is never a truly 'profitable time' to move. Grinding or switching cold is the only way to get the money. It's up to the hustler to decide how much grinding. I believe some magicians have misunderstood Forte and Vernon and warped the final quote into a simple...

"Just one move will get you the money."

Saying it like that is ignorant BS.

On that lovely note, Merry Christmas to all!

Best,

Grant
Grant Carden

www.fastcompanydvd.com
tommy
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A fella said: If you have the money to play in the high stakes poker games then you really don't have to win that many hands to make a handsome living. For example, if you are playing in a $200-400 limit holdem game and can win 5 big blinds in a day you're making a nice income. ($200 x 5 - $1,000). That's basically winning one more hand than you lose in a day. If you play 5 days a week you're making $5k a week, $20k a month, or $240k a year. As you can see, poker is just like real life. It takes money to make money.


There are no rules. Except don’t get caught, perhaps. We personally use a very safe edge, that actually does not win any pots for us but gives us an advantage. How many time one uses a move all depends on how safe the move is really. If a move is only 90% safe and you use it ten times a night the chances are you get caught every night. You have to use common sense not rules. When it comes to cheating one size does not fit all.

Merry Christmas
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
C. Loubard
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Thanks Clock! I agree about Forte, but let me take it further. If say that one card were marked so you could track it, You would be tracking it every hand. One could then say you were cheating every hand.

Yes, dealing one second could get you the gold nuggets, but like you say, when is that going to happen? primarily you're panning gold dust.

you also have to take into account playing habits of people and many times you'll be sitting at a table full of unknowns.

Tommy! true enough but some don't play those big limit games. and most of us, okay, some of us, use common sense.

this statement was made primarily for those who keep regurgitating that one move a night line
Ilya
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Peaple, who can do nothing at the card table, would be glad to have even small advantage, and they are looking for it. Professional card cheater don't need a small advantage because he is able to make a great advantage.
C. Loubard
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Ilya yes an advantage is an advantage, but don't think just because someone is a professional cheat they won't even use the slightest edge, they will. Regardless, that advantage works throughout the night, so my point stands.
Mr. Z
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Depends on a lot of factors, some of which have been mentioned. The hold out artist will try to re-introduce the card at the most opportune time before it's necessary to clean up (deck change or whatever). However it seems like whenever "games" are discussed around here it's always in the format of private poker games, so maybe in that context the "one move a night" might have some merit.

In other areas not so much. I know a guy who'd give his partner the flop every round in casino poker, or kill an opponent's hole cards. These are huge advantages. Take the casino 21 dealer playing the flash on every round, giving his/her partner the top card and/or hole card. Or running-up strong hands when the cards are available. In these examples you're definitely going to try to move as often as you can, for the simple fact that it isn't free to play and you can go broke before you get anything to move on! I've seen it happen, and it sucks. One of my favorite lines from a friend of mine, "You can cheat and still lose."
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
C. Loubard
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Even when holding out and bringing it back, one can never be sure it will force everyone else out, especially playing solo.

Z, you're friend is on the money with his losing line. I've *** near lost my shirt before and sometimes forced to lose because game dynamics change. think of it as "situational awareness"
Pavloter
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Quote:
On 2007-12-24 17:39, Mr. Z wrote:
"You can cheat and still lose."
Cannot agree more. Knowing opponents cards can be some times too dangerous or dealign yourself good hand, and opponent still gets better.
Pavlo
rawdawg
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Technically, just one dollar will get you the money from a Slot Machine too...

I think I would rather know my opponents hands than having a strong hand myself.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Feliz Navidad, Habari Gani, Happy Hanukkah, Eid Mubarak.... did I miss anybody?

raw!
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
Clock
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Quote:
I think I would rather know my opponents hands than having a strong hand myself.


John Brzenk
-World Champion Arm Wrestler
Grant Carden

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Unknown419
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Quote:
On 2007-12-24 13:41, C. Loubard wrote:
After hearing people say, time and time again, you only need to move once during a nights game, I've finally decided to say something.

Admittedly, I've perpetuated the myth myself, because I just found it humorous to do so. However, after getting in an argument with a magician over it, I find myself trying to set the record straight.

Unless you can ring in a deck and cause someone to lose all their money, a cheater will move all night. it is a grind to make the money.

I am not sure where this tall-tale started, Vernon is my guess, but it is far from being true.

Show me someone who says otherwise and I'll show you someone who hasn't moved and is a liar.

nuff said


I agree with Mr. Loubard, it is definitely a grind all day/night trying to make money (see movie Shade for example). I wish it was that easy to move one time a night and break everybody in the house in one pot and then go home. This is not possible even with a cold deck move. Why? Because 99% of the time a person is not going to put all of their money on the table and play, they are going to hold some of it back and keep the rest in their pocket just incase they get broke; hence the reason for re-buy-ins (I'm not sure if this is the right terminology because I don't play in such games where they call it that; we just tell the loser to put back up his/her table stakes and get to playing again). If more money comes out I go back to the bathroom and jack-up again, if not, I go home or to another game.

I may sound conceited in saying this but I'm good and believe you me I cheat almost every time the deck touches my hand. You can believe that lie if you like that's perpetuated by magicians but I promise you, after you get broke, you will be doing that winning move every chance you get.

You know come to think of it, these guys had to be talking about a poker game because this rule doesn't apply in any other table game that I know of.


Respectfully,

Doc
DStachowiak
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I agree with Clock, that some have misinterpreted what people like Vernon and Forte said.
Why wouldn't you take advantage of every opportunity to gain an advantage? Peek when you can, track a card when you can, daub, collude, whatever, why wouldn't you take every advantage you can get?
Woke up.
Fell out of bed.
Dragged a comb across m' head.
Andrei
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I am also confused about terminology. Would marking cards and then just following them throughout the game be considered "moving once" or would that be in effect a sort of continuous move?

Andrei
Paul H
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Hi Andre,

I think the hustlers term is 'playing paper'. Whether this constitutes moving will depend on how the marked deck is introduced into the game and how the paper is played. If the strategy is based on using information, then the only moves neccessary may be based on switching or ringing in the marked deck. However, if play is based on second dealing then many moves may be attempted throughout the game. And there are probably many different combinations. As you may have noticed, I am applying the concept of a move specifically to sleight of hand executed live at the card table.

Regards,

Paul H
ronfour
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Erdnase said it would be quite sufficient to move one out of twenty times on your deal.
rawdawg
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Erdnase was also playing Poker et al., in the late 1800's. I'm fairly positive if the Erdster was playing at the tables I was playing on when the Poker boom hit, he would have been moving three times a hand and twice during the break.
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
KingStardog
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Quote:
On 2007-12-24 15:21, Clock wrote:
Forte said something along the lines of, "Just knowing the location of only one card can give you a significant edge that beat a group of players over a period of time." Not the exact quote, but something along those lines.


The old theory is control one card, as in pulling. Pulling three for a hand. There are a lot of them. probably as many as there are cheaters, always looking for an edge. In practice you move when you won't be detected. Could be once, twice or a full grind.
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
KingStardog
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I got another minute now. One of the older diaries from 48 described a king, queen, ten out of the in play pack. Now the guy was writing to himself and there is no magic decoder ring half a century later, but I think he meant that they were pulling and controlling those cards to kill specific hands. Wasn't much there to realy help guess it out. It would seem that controlling a single king out of play would still be the effective move for a single player.

I don't know what kind of system, but he mentioned that the deck was sprung real good and being light was not an issue so I take it this was an all night grind.
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
tommy
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Back in 1948 Five card Stud was the most popular poker game. In that game, you see a lot of face up cards and you needed to use your memory to know what had been folded etc. If you happen to see three kings Queens or Tens then you know for a fact no has one in the hole if one of each of them three is missing and so on. I don’t what he means really. Holding cards is not too good, I mean can pick up a deck and know just by feel that it’s light. In soft games guys go rabbit hunting which bring it on top. In multi deck games like black you have more chance of guys not noticing the decks are light. I am not a black jack man though but them thee are tens and taking them out would give the bank a better edge perhaps. I wonder what he means by well sprung…
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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