We Remember The Magic Café We Remember
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Riser Midi - Traditionals (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5 [Next]
James Kernen
View Profile
Regular user
Arizona
160 Posts

Profile of James Kernen
Quote:
On 2007-12-28 08:28, Joshua Barrett wrote:
To be honest jake, I don't know whats going on with all of that, and its somthing I don't want to get in the middle of, if you can understand. there's to much comming from both directions to make any sense from all the heresay


Aren't you just stepping in the middle now with this post? If you wanted to stay out of it, you could have posted nothing....

Jake has not been using hearsay either... He pointed to tangible things that could be verified.....
Joshua Barrett
View Profile
Inner circle
Cincinnati, Ohio
3627 Posts

Profile of Joshua Barrett
Quote:
On 2007-12-28 08:40, James Kernen wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-12-28 08:28, Joshua Barrett wrote:
To be honest jake, I don't know whats going on with all of that, and its somthing I don't want to get in the middle of, if you can understand. there's to much comming from both directions to make any sense from all the heresay


Aren't you just stepping in the middle now with this post? If you wanted to stay out of it, you could have posted nothing....

Jake has not been using hearsay either... He pointed to tangible things that could be verified.....

here we go...sigh..
I posted a reply because I was directly quoted. all I know with 100% certainty, is all my dealing with jake have been more then good, id say hes the most helpful vendor of anything iv ever bought anything from. Also that my personal dealings with james riser have been positve as well. I don't have the technical data to tell whos ripping off who etc etc, and I am not in a position to pass some judgement down on somthing or someone I know NOTHING about. I know little to squat about metal working, and this post and my previous post that was quoted by jake was merely a consumer point of view, that has recieved great products from either side
James Kernen
View Profile
Regular user
Arizona
160 Posts

Profile of James Kernen
People can be nice and still do the wrong thing.

I probably know less about metal working than you, but I can still read information that is presented objectively and make the best decision possible.

If new information comes to light, I am open to reassess my decision, but to be agnostic about a situation that is not subjective isn't the right thing to do (in my opingion) no matter how nice you are.
Joshua Barrett
View Profile
Inner circle
Cincinnati, Ohio
3627 Posts

Profile of Joshua Barrett
Sent you a pm james Smile
Mad Jake
View Profile
Inner circle
All the voices in my head helped me make
2050 Posts

Profile of Mad Jake
Quote:
On 2007-12-28 08:40, James Kernen wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-12-28 08:28, Joshua Barrett wrote:
To be honest jake, I don't know whats going on with all of that, and its somthing I don't want to get in the middle of, if you can understand. there's to much comming from both directions to make any sense from all the heresay


Aren't you just stepping in the middle now with this post? If you wanted to stay out of it, you could have posted nothing....

Jake has not been using hearsay either... He pointed to tangible things that could be verified.....


Thanks for pointing this out James. I stay away from talking about his mother and refering to his Depends, I pretty much stick to the facts with the regards to Jim Riser. The character assasination that Jim refers to comes from himself with his slander and name calling. He thinks it makes him look tough or smart, but in reality shows what a shallow insecure person he is.

Jim makes a claim that his M&M forcing vase was ripped off, when in actuality, the vase I made it taller, wider and has diffent finials. The pedestal was made in the fashion an old 1800's vase was made, but the reason I thought it a good idea was we were able to add a feature to it that his most likely does not have and a ribbed base was necessary to do this. Jim makes a remark that I copied wood color, duh, redheart is redheart and if you notice throughout a lot of my wood releases I'm a big fan of Black Ebony and African blackwood. Jim feels that everything belongs to him if he combines it. News flash, the combination of Redheart and black ebony has been popular for centurys.

As to saddle design, Jim's sidestepping for the bezel could have been a bit more, well...creative. Of course that form of spinning has been used, but RNT applied a very specific identifiable bezel to the Don Alan chop cup, I have a vast collection of cups and chop cups, none had this until RNT came along, and Jim is using it on his pieces, that is a very distinct copy. The only thing Jim has is his products with our saddle designs to try to defend and mindset that feels he has the right to call names and belittle people. He constantly refers to people on the Café as mindless sheep, pretty much says what thinks of people just because they visit the Café. Jim feels he can stand and cast judgement on the entire community, which leads to the following.

Jim has now become the Shell Answerman of determining who and who is a magician Wannabe, nice classification of People in general Jim who have a "Dream" of being a magician for a living or even a venue of being a street performer.

In addition to that Jim feels qualified to undermine greats that have influenced street magic, by saying they are not part of the System. Get credit cards he says, be part of the system! Here is a reality check Jim and others, the system is collapsing, I for one would not want to be anywhere near the core or part of it as little as possible as the entire Greed driven system is about to collapse. People removed or far from the system are more apt to survive in a society that no longer has a working economical system than those who have lived their life saying "Charge It". He remarks that well know street performers have their own agendas, what to hustle and make a living? Their street knowledge is valuable, more so than most I've seen flooding a lot of forums.

Don't let Jim fool you into thinking he is the wiseman, if you chose not to use credit cards or even have them, it may be a good choice, it prevents instant gratification with a high pricetag and by not adding to the systems already broken greed driven economy, you may be helping it survive one more day.

Jim's recent release of the Midi Traditionals, again has our saddle on it that we use for the Don Alan, a very distinct one. He also writes now, that RNT II will probally rip him off, well as long as Jim continues to use the design that RNT originally applied to the Don Alan, I will tool up, period and I do not appoligze for this, while it might affect the way people percieve us, I don't like having our design used by someone that is so selfserving and arrogant.

If I'm wrong in my assumptions of the protection of the use of the styled saddle, please feel free to let me know. But if you defend this, you will be giving me grounds and support to say use Brett Sherwoods saddle on our cups, afterall it too is a design that has been used for centurys, but Brett applied it to a specific item and feels he needs to protect it. I am no different with the Don Alan saddle.

Jake
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
Mad Jake
View Profile
Inner circle
All the voices in my head helped me make
2050 Posts

Profile of Mad Jake
Quote:
On 2007-12-28 09:42, Joshua Barrett wrote:
Sent you a pm james Smile


If you have something to share, do it in the thread. This is a Jim Riser tactic present or say something that could be BS or not and not allow others to decide.
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
Tom Fenton
View Profile
Inner circle
Leeds, UK (but I'm Scottish)
1449 Posts

Profile of Tom Fenton
I usually have little time for "arguments" on this forum.

I have read Mr Riser's "Musings" on his website and I feel that his remarks about Jake and his family were totally uncalled for.

Professional disagreements are part of being a professional but personal name calling and abuse is, to my mind, unprofessional and childish.
"But there isn't a door"
Joshua Barrett
View Profile
Inner circle
Cincinnati, Ohio
3627 Posts

Profile of Joshua Barrett
Only thing said jake, is I wasn't trying to start a fight or get into one.
Tom Fenton
View Profile
Inner circle
Leeds, UK (but I'm Scottish)
1449 Posts

Profile of Tom Fenton
I tried to edit my post above but there had already been a reply so...

In the past I have been in touch with Mr Riser and he was helpful and personable in our communications.

What he wrote in his "musings" saddens me.
"But there isn't a door"
Mad Jake
View Profile
Inner circle
All the voices in my head helped me make
2050 Posts

Profile of Mad Jake
Quote:
On 2007-12-28 10:29, Joshua Barrett wrote:
Only thing said jake, is I wasn't trying to start a fight or get into one.


Josh, I never thought you were trying to start a fight. This is education of who designed what. What ****es me off is people will bow down to stay on a sale list and ignore the fact that he lays claim to anything that becomes popular and uses the excuse I've been around while he was still in diapers, please there's got to be a better line than that.

Helpful or not he behaves in the manner of an anti-social person and uses slanderous name calling tactics publically to undermine someone else.

If I were to put the Sherwood saddle on cups, say the Foxy II.v's what would the publics reaction be?

Some time ago we posted a picture of a one piece chop cup called the SBL strolling chop cup, but did not pricetag it, we said coming soon. This ad was Bait. Risers Watchdogs went running to Jim saying that RNT II copied his cup design. This was exactly what I was hoping for. You see, the cup was spun by a company in St Louis, in 1972, it was the shell of the Don Alan, the great thing was I have the printed invoice from 1972 to substantiate our claim. So there you have it, Jim's cup modified from the Don Alan design and has the recessed bezeled saddle. Again the defense is nothing but dancing and name calling.

I've recieved PMs already, it's not fair Jim can't defend himself here. WTH? Maybe if Jim was part of system and followed the systems rules he would still be a member here and would be able to reply. I have no idea why Jim was removed from the site, the admins keep that protected as a privacy matter. Yay to them for that!

But then again Jim has a blog that no body can respond to, so it looks like tit for tat again.
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
Mr. Mystoffelees
View Profile
Inner circle
I haven't changed anyone's opinion in
3615 Posts

Profile of Mr. Mystoffelees
So, where can I get a really good set of cups and balls that are not mired in controversy???
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
MickeyPainless
View Profile
Inner circle
California
6074 Posts

Profile of MickeyPainless
***So, where can I get a really good set of cups and balls that are not mired in controversy???***

Penguin or Magic Makers! Smile
jacksonmagic
View Profile
New user
18 Posts

Profile of jacksonmagic
I'm just glad that quality and style are still heavily contested fields in the manufacture of cups & balls. We should all consider ourselves lucky that RNT2 and Riser are both putting out cups. We could be stuck with worthless plastic corporate knockoffs, but there are still magicians and metal spinners who care quite a bit about what they do. God knows, we need more like you.
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24210 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
Quote:
On 2007-12-28 19:35, MickeyPainless wrote:
***So, where can I get a really good set of cups and balls that are not mired in controversy???***

Penguin or Magic Makers! Smile


:lol: Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile
:lol: Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile
:lol: Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile
:lol: Smile Smile Smile
:lol: Smile Smile
:lol: Smile
:lol:
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
MadUncleAndy
View Profile
New user
Deep in the Heart of Darkest America
68 Posts

Profile of MadUncleAndy
I think the new cups look awesome, but I'd like to know the load size.

-------------------------

As for the great controversy of intellectual theft between various cup manufacturers...along withother areas of magic, I'm at a dead loss.

First, and I'm sorry if this is terribly naive...but doesn't patent law cover this sort of thing?

If not, why can't the magical fraternity find some method to police itself...perhaps with a design registry of some sort with SAM or IBM, and an accredidation for providers/distributors?

I'd love to shop ethically...but without the encyclopedic knowledge of magical history some people seem to have, how can the average punter manage? All we have to go by is a case of he-said/she-said, and in this case a situation where looking at the websites, of the parties in question, I see stuff that looks an awful lot like Riser's discontinued designs on the RNT site...the micro chop cup thing and the innocent chop cup thing come to mind...but having no knowledge of history of magic, I couldn't tell you who had them first.

As for the saddle design, unless I'm missing something terribly subtle, that "saddle design" is also evident on my woefully empty coffee cup, as well as on disposable plastic solo drink cups from my kid's birthday party...but I'm no expert.

Clearly, at best, one or more poeple making these claims are mistaken. At worst, someone's lying through their teeth. Without some sort of registry/repository of design and intellectual rights, your poor schmuck in the field who doesn't know the history of metal spinning or cup design, much as he may want to buy only from the ethical vendor, hasn't much to go on in making his decision.
Mad Jake
View Profile
Inner circle
All the voices in my head helped me make
2050 Posts

Profile of Mad Jake
The saddle design on a chop cup and cups goes way back before Jim started using it on his cups, some are subtle but more are more pronounced. The application to applying it to cups & balls and chop cups started with the original Rings N Things, I never claimed it to be "Mine" but Rings N Things, which RNT II owns.

As to the Mirco set, the stainless dresslines and size are that of a Rings N Thigns LePetite, the copper was Jim's design. Jim & Dennis discontinued making these sets. RNT II started selling the sets, there is no ethics issue here as we pointed people to Dennis for his routine and the props (cups) were are own design from the beginning, the LePetite and the Copper cup was a cup that was manufactured by Rings N Things for Disney Land in California, tooling part #k-200. Both these cups predate Risers design. The proof on both items lays with the invoicing by the company that made the tooling and, there was no design theft by RNT II, we simply packaged the parts together and pointed everyone to Dennis for the routine. Again all the design, conceptual drawings are dated and on file and predate anything Jim did.

As to the chop cup, you missed out on that part, 2 years ago RNT II posted a picture of a Coming Soon Item. Jim's watchdogs immediately reported back to him stating RNT II was ripping off the stubby. Funny though, again documented paperwork on file with the tooling company shows a manufacture date of the part to be 1972. This was the shell of a Don Alan. We basically made the Don shorter as we have with others, recalculated measurements and the Strolling cup was there. How can you claim something is being ripped off or he owns the design rights to it when the paperwork supports a 1972 part and everyone reflected on how much it looked like Risers?

His cry about the forcing vase, if you set the 2 side by side, the differences are quite noticible, size, functinality etc. This was COPIED from an early 1800's boxwood piece that I had purchased from Mario, along with numerous other pieces, having a 3D model in your hand is better than using Prof. Hoffmans book, meaning these particular effects are Public Domain. A lot of Thayer/Owen even is public domain as a vase majority was taking from Prof. Hoffman books. The next claim in this matter is the choice of woods, I have a die box I made from Redheart and Ebony when I was 19 and have numerous other props from others with the same wood mixture. He says I copied wood color, now if that isn't grasping for straws.

Quite frankly, I could give a rats ass about the saddle, but given the fact that Jim insists on slanderous posts, non of which you would ever find on our site, and talking about my family, which he knows jack **** about makes me care now. His name calling,talking about my mother and other things that are A. none of his business and b. not backed up by any facts that are documented earlier to our invoicing supply from the original Rings N Things company has me more than tweaked.

Jim resorts to name calling and vile remarks because that's all he has, then he does so in a fashion that it can not be replied to. I was polite in asking for the removal of the text, but Jim wants to bust my cups & balls, so until Jim appologizes for his remarks and comments about my family the situation will remain the same.

Getting back to your remark about your empty coffee cup, funny my starbucks cup has a base simliar to that of Sherwoods saddle on his cup, what would the harm be putting that on our cups? Well, while the design is in use by Starbucks for the Coffe Cups, Brett applied a design to his cups, I would not go after his application of an age old design.
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
MadUncleAndy
View Profile
New user
Deep in the Heart of Darkest America
68 Posts

Profile of MadUncleAndy
MadJake,

As one madman to another (honest, I wasn't ripping off your username, and I know you weren't ripping off mine)...

This is precisely what I mean. I wouldn't know a dressline if it bit me on the arse. I'm in no place to judge.

You can talk circles around me about cup design, and so can Jim Riser. I'm in no place to judge between the two of you.

That being said, both of you clearly have strong opinions...to put it mildy. I'm going under the assumption each of you believes yourself to be in the right, although someone more cynical might assume either you or Mr. Riser is lying...I see no reason to assume that it may not be a more honest misunderstanding on one or more of your parts. Still, though, one or both of you are empirically wrong, and people who want to avoid knockoffs but don't have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the field are without much in the way of options...onecould choose to believe one or the other of you, but in all honesty, either or both of you could lie to most consumers baldfacedly and we wouldn't know the difference. You two are experts in your field, and most of us are not, so a judgement from any of us non-experts would be an uninformed judgement call at best, or a popularity contest at worst. The alternative of throwing up our hands and ignoring the problem is also distasteful.

Now magic is, for me, a sideline. My main line of work is writing software. As I'm sure we all know, the software industry has a huge Intellectual Property problem...but the software industry also makes use of the legal system to try to resolve issues like this...with admittedly mixed success.

Why can't the Magic industry do the same, either via the law, or simply to have an ethics body attached to one or more of the larger organizations, which can pass judgment on these affairs. While that wouldn't stop disagreement, it would, hopefully, provide expert third party judgment to help the punters to do what they think is right.
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24210 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
The problem with magical IP is that most magicians do not use the available legal means to protect their own property. Steinmeyer and Gaughan are two examples of people who actually patent their material. In some cases, people are conflicted about things that in any other industry would have long since become part of the public domain.

A perfect example of this is the Paul Fox cup design. It's been around since the 1930's. There is no design patent on it, and if there had been, it would have expired by now anyway.

All of the magic clubs -- IBM, SAM, the Magic Circle, have ethical bodies that are supposed to make decisions about who owns what. However, their decisions affect only those who are members of the organizations in question.

These clubs have no legal status as far as the ability to levy fines or penalize people is concerned. And how can they place a judgment against someone who is not a member. The extent of their power is expulsion. If a magician is not a member of one of the clubs what does he care if he gets booted out?
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
djkuttdecks
View Profile
Special user
Nashville
660 Posts

Profile of djkuttdecks
Quote:
On 2007-12-29 13:33, Bill Palmer wrote:


A perfect example of this is the Paul Fox cup design. It's been around since the 1930's. There is no design patent on it, and if there had been, it would have expired by now anyway.



Not necessarily, it depends on when Paul Fox died, not the creation of the product in question. We can thank Walt Disney and Mickey Mouse for that Smile
-DJ
Mad Jake
View Profile
Inner circle
All the voices in my head helped me make
2050 Posts

Profile of Mad Jake
A simple solution to this ordeal is for Riser to stop the slander and design his own particular saddle. The overtones and vile remarks about myself and family are unwarranted, libelous and unprofessional. Stop the nonsense and the "Clown" goes back to his circus and leaves Jim alone, plain, simple and entirely up to Jim.
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Riser Midi - Traditionals (2 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.25 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL