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Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2007-12-29 13:40, djkuttdecks wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-12-29 13:33, Bill Palmer wrote:


A perfect example of this is the Paul Fox cup design. It's been around since the 1930's. There is no design patent on it, and if there had been, it would have expired by now anyway.



Not necessarily, it depends on when Paul Fox died, not the creation of the product in question. We can thank Walt Disney and Mickey Mouse for that Smile
-DJ


That would be a copyright or a trademark, not a patent. Patents have a limited duration. Also, there was a particular frame of reference in which material had to have a copyright filed. After 1976, that was not necessary.

BTW, the extension of copyright had little to do with Walt Disney or Mickey Mouse. It was the work of Jackie Kennedy. She got ticked off when Claude Debussy's works went into the public domain.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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djkuttdecks
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Ahhh your right as always Mr. Palmer Smile Thanks for the correction.
-DJ
MadUncleAndy
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Thanks Bill!

The following isn't by way of argument against your position...just brainstorming. The software engineer in me likes to believe there is an algorithmic solution for any problem. ;-)

Quote:
On 2007-12-29 13:33, Bill Palmer wrote:
The problem with magical IP is that most magicians do not use the available legal means to protect their own property.


I can see how that could be a strain for an individual...how about a club or body just for magic inventors? With pooled resources, perhaps, such an organization could hire a lawyer for the group?

Quote:
In some cases, people are conflicted about things that in any other industry would have long since become part of the public domain.


Again, a standards body giving a standard definition would be good. It might not be one all could agree on, but at least it would be predicatable...and that in and of itself could be good.

Quote:
All of the magic clubs -- IBM, SAM, the Magic Circle, have ethical bodies that are supposed to make decisions about who owns what. However, their decisions affect only those who are members of the organizations in question.

These clubs have no legal status as far as the ability to levy fines or penalize people is concerned. And how can they place a judgment against someone who is not a member. The extent of their power is expulsion. If a magician is not a member of one of the clubs what does he care if he gets booted out?


Not necessarily so. If they wished, they could have the power of endorsement. Look at your tube of toothpaste. It may or may not have a logo on saying that this is approved by the American Dental Association. Some consumers will buy only a product with this approval.

Likewise, some foods are approved as Kosher by the Orthodox Union (the little circle around a U on some foodstuffs) or other bodies. People (not all Jewish) sometime will alter their purchasing based on this. I'm Episcopalian, for instance, but prefer Kosher meat on ethical grounds of how the animal is slaughtered.

The Motion Picture Ratings folks do similar things. Nothing *requires* a film to be rated...but lots of cinemas and theatre-goers care very much about film ratings...and will not watch/show a film which does not fit their idea of a suitable rating. Not having a rating is a statement in and of itself.

Now the ADA or the OU cannot fine you for making bad toothpaste or for slaughtering your animals more cruelly than necessary...the MPAA cannot go after you for making a film they find offensive...but these folks *can* sue you seven ways from Sunday if you advertise their endorsement falsely. In fact, that may even be criminal fraud...not sure there.

So, your magical bodies' ethics committees could establish endorsements for products and/or manufacturers, which those manufacturers could use in advertising their product. These approvals could be based on both IP considerations and quality considerations. Some people wouldn't care whether a product carried this...but clearly some others would. Not displaying the endorsement on your advertising would be tantamount to saying you don't feel your product would pass muster.

Folks who do care about ethics (and I suspect there are more than most folks would think) could make purchase decisions based on a neutral third party.
Bill Palmer
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First of all, the magic clubs do not have power to change the law. They cannot make law. They can only define a code of ethics. This can never have the power of law, until such power is given to them by the government.

Certainly the magic clubs can endorse certain things, but if their endorsements run contrary to the body of law, then they can place themselves in a position of violating the law.

Maybe you should do a search on IP law as it applies to magic. This is a topic that has been worn out on this forum.

Here are some threads to check out:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......um=171&4
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......um=171&0
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......um=171&4

Some of these reference other threads as well. I'm quoting these because I know where they are located. The section called "Right or Wrong" which is further down in the Café has a lot of material as well.

Part of the dilemma is this. We know of many companies that make no original products. They simply put out bad knockoffs. Some are no longer allowed to purchase ad space in the club magazines. The clubs really stuck their necks out when they did this, because it is difficult to justify not selling to a company that is not violating any actual law. And in order to enforce any ethics of these situations, the person controlling the editorial output of the magazine must be on very firm legal footing.

Case in point -- a dealer in the Middle East whose name can be transliterated from his native language in more than one way. He changes the transliteration to be the same as another magician in another Middle Eastern country. There was duplication of material as well as the company name. This one caused real headaches for the clubs. But since there was nobody on the staff of the magazines who could prove what was really going on, the copyist was allowed to advertise.

And what does an endorsement really mean? Who cares if the IBM or the SAM endorses a trick? Who cares if the Magic Circle endorses an item? Not many of us at all.

When WAM went after the Masked Magician after hearing that he was going to expose the spiker, the judge found against them. Why? They had to prove that he was going to reveal the actual method of the illusion as Andre Kole had designed it. Fox refused to show them the video ahead of time. The judge refused to issue a warrant. WAM tried to sue for damages.

The judge threw the whole thing out of court -- you can't sue for damages until they occur.

It's a very complex issue with a simple solution. If you want to protect it, patent it. The big boys do it. Why don't we?

Four reasons:
1) Laziness.
2) Lack of resources
3) Lack of knowledge
4) The fact that a patent paper that reveals the secret must be filed.

Most magicians use 4 as their excuse. It usually is 1.
"The Swatter"

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matt kemp
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Quote:
On 2007-12-29 16:26, Bill Palmer wrote:
It's a very complex issue with a simple solution. If you want to protect it, patent it. The big boys do it. Why don't we?

Four reasons:
1) Laziness.
2) Lack of resources
3) Lack of knowledge
4) The fact that a patent paper that reveals the secret must be filed.

Most magicians use 4 as their excuse. It usually is 1.


So if a trick were patented, then could the average person look through the patent files to see how the trick works?
jacksonmagic
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The average person can go to a library to find out how many tricks are performed.
Dave V
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The average person isn't interested enough to care one way or another.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
MickeyPainless
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I personally never had a reason to like or dis like Riser and do in fact own a set of his cups although I bought them from another magician. From what I've read and heard, he makes good stuff! I prefer to buy from RNT2 simply because I love the product and I consider Jake a friend and like doing biz with friends!
What I DO have a problem with is the childish name calling and insinuation on Riser's blog which may have even been over looked if I really wanted his product HOWEVER, bring a mans mother into the mix and I have a HUGE problem with that!
Based on that alone, even if I could make the cut and pass his profile screening I would not and will not do business with Jim Riser!
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cfrye
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Quote:
On 2007-12-29 16:59, matt kemp wrote:

So if a trick were patented, then could the average person look through the patent files to see how the trick works?


Exactly.



Curt
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Clearly there are two issues between Riser and RNT2:

1. who used who's saddle and was it a deliberate act
2. who is using personal attacks to further an agenda

I don't have enough information to determine if the use of another's saddle was a deliberate act - but I do have the ability to look at the posted information online and determine who, if anyone, is using personal attacks in an effort to further their agenda.

My grandfather taught me that the way a man treats those he dislikes or disagrees with is usually an indicator of what the man's true character is. We are all human and none of us are perfect - we all get emotional at times and make mistakes but in my opinion Riser's outward and ongoing attack on Jake and his family is unacceptable and should not be tolerated - no matter who's at fault. With that said, everyone should be offered a chance to make things right.

I believe if Jim rewrote his 'musings' page, publicly and privately apologized for his personal attacks, and stopped fishing online forums to continue his ranting on his personal website, he would improve the position of his opinions and, as a result, give himself much more credibility. I believe if this was done, it's feasible that Jake would modify his position and the parties would be one step closer to resolving the true dispute over the saddle.

This thread has been all over the board..some claim James is cocky, others claim eccentric...some claim he has a right to act in the manner he does, and another states we need the "FDA", magic endorsements (heaven help us), and third party oversight of magic. To each their own I suppose, but IMO this issue should not have spilled out into the public forum and if anyone should have used a third party to resolve the issues at hand it should have been James and RNT2 once they realized they couldn't resolve the issues themselves. Tools are worthless if you don't use them and both parties involved prove to be excellent craftsman - simply put both gentleman are partially to blame for the lack of resolution over the saddle design.

I can't (and won't) state that James (or any other 'great thinker' in magic) is cocky, a bit eccentric, a thief, etc. - but I will state that its usually rather easy to see if a man is willing to go above and beyond to personally attack and/or publicly harm another person. When I see a personal commitment to attack someone I find myself wondering what the true merits of the argument are and usually find an ulterior motive. Personally, I don't see any ulterior motive in Jakes posts - they appear to be factual and have never included personal attacks.

I don't think we need to create a new form of magical 'government' as "MadUncleAndy" suggests. First, research who you are buying goods and services from and decide as both a person and a consumer if the dealer/manufacturer/craftsman is worthy of your purchase. Remember your money will in one way or another further enable their future public and private behavior. Let them sell to whom they wish - in the long run its the consumers who have the real power and if you can't acquire something today, there's always the chance of eBay tomorrow. Second, if your a craftsman find a sure fire way to protect your work. If you can't resolve an issue with another person get a third party involved and, if need be, arbitrate or litigate the alleged dispute.
"Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it because you're not really looking. You don't really want to know the secret... You want to be fooled." - The Prestige (2006)
MadUncleAndy
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Quote:
On 2007-12-29 17:44, Mr. Muggle wrote:
Clearly there are two issues between Riser and RNT2:

...There are also the two walled chop cups, the mini cups with the hip flask, and I suspect it doesn't stop there at all. From some interesting stuff I read over at Genii, there seems to be something much deeper involving a friend of Mr. Riser's being a former owner of RNT and a changeover in ownership.

...so perhaps this particular feud is a bad example, because if I can accurately piece this one together the bad blood seems to predate some of the specific manifestations thereof.

With the Riser v. RNTII thing, it's fairly easy to make up my mind. Neither play nicely with the other, but only one though has (so far as I've seen yet) posted what seems to be their intent to copy the other's future material. *That* bugs me, whether it's eye for an eye or not. Two wrongs don't make a right, even if three lefts do.

Quote:
He wants to take our design, that's fine, as I've made perfectly clear, if this is ok for Jim, then it's tit for tat. saddles for cups.



The issue at large is bigger than this feud. Let's see, who should or shouldn't be making a PK ring? How about a pen-through-bill gimmick? Who, if anyone, has the right to assign a dead person's name to their material without family permission, whether that be Houdini or Paul Fox?



Quote:
...another states we need the "FDA", magic endorsements (heaven help us), and third party oversight of magic.


Don't know whether I mis-typed or you mis-read me. No matter, it was a breakdown in communication. If I said "FDA" (which is a government body) I meant "ADA"...as in American Dental Association...not a government body at all...just a union of concerned professionals.

Perhaps I wax nostalgic for the days where guilds regulated their members.

Quote:
To each their own I suppose, but IMO this issue should not have spilled out into the public forum ...


I have to agree with you there.
Mad Jake
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Andy,
my intentions can bug you all they like, I make no appologies. A very select few know the backburner to the whole subject of the transfer of RNT II and RNT was even worse, it was like a nightmare relived.

As a new user here, I would suspect that you have started some research over on the Genii board, that's a good start, but to form an opinion that holds any meaning or validity requires a lot more research on your part before you could even remotely conclude any type of opinion.

One thing I have is credibility, I have the documentation in hard copy, blue prints and enough if I released it publicly for all to read that would pretty much send a Tsunami through magic history that would be felt around the globe. Documentation and hard copy proof is the best credibility available, especially when it predates others works.

The remark that this should have not spillled over into a public forum is nonsense, simply because it spilled when Jim made his new product and again applied the Don Alan Saddle to the cups and it was posted here. In addition to his description it directed you to read his musings page. Ask anyone that knows me, I don't take a beating or sit quietly when I'm being attacked and since the reference was made here to his new cups in addition to his new lies and vile attacks, it ended up here, I'm protecting the design.

As to the cups themselves, again the Don Alan Saddle is on the cups, I could forsee in the near future of a set of mini traditionals with Don Alan saddle on them. After all it's our design.

Someone brought up a good point in an email regarding this thread. Both Steve Bender and Tim Star are using the saddle style. Why am I not !@#$%ing about them?
Simply because Steve and Tim were orignal RNT members and after the ordeals both of the went through, they were entitled to some compensation and recognition for their hard work.

One thing I have never ever done and I defy anyone to produce the proof because it doesn't exist is badmouth, demean or belittle Jim's work, I'v praised it highly for Jim's craftsmanship. Jim on the other hand knows nothing but taking from the community by using vulgar depictations of people he has no idea of whom he is talking about, and it wasn't only me, it was other craftsmen as well. Jim wants everyone to focus on Jim, if you notice in most of his rants he must always point out his accomplishments in life and challenge others. The best was when he tried to challenge Thomas Wayne and Colin Rose for their work, that went over like a lead balloon. You see Uncle Andy this runs a lot deeper than just RNT II and Jim, it spans over many people Jim has publicly held in low esteem because the focus was no longer on him.

In closing, Jim can take all the shots at me personally he wants, that matters a rats ass to me, but he will not get away with attacking the company or my family, I won't tollerate it, period.
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
jacksonmagic
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I can't help but to respect that Jake, I would probably be in the same frame of mind if I were you.
jacksonmagic
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Referring to libel regarding family and such.
Mad Jake
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Quote]
...There are also the two walled chop cups, the mini cups with the hip flask, and I suspect it doesn't stop there at all. From some interesting stuff I read over at Genii, there seems to be something much deeper involving a friend of Mr. Riser's being a former owner of RNT and a changeover in ownership.

[/quote]

Two walled cup? I forgot to touch on, this was NOT Jim's Original creation. Do some research, it predates both of us and even the original RNT.

Interesting stuff over on Genii, where were you reading Smile
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
jacksonmagic
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By the way Jake, I'm sorry to butt in, I'm new to the magic Café, my name is Rob Jackson. I'm fairly young and don't know a whole lot about the argument (other than reading both sides postings), but from the perspective of someone who works in the conservative news talk business, his "musings" read more like Michael Savage than Andy Rooney.
Mr. Muggle
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Quote:
On 2007-12-29 19:59, MadUncleAndy wrote:
[...]there seems to be something much deeper involving a friend of Mr. Riser's being a former owner of RNT and a changeover in ownership. [...] the bad blood seems to predate some of the specific manifestations thereof.


Bad blood or not - it really doesn't matter...people can disagree and still get along without personally attacking and belittling people.

Quote:
On 2007-12-29 19:59, MadUncleAndy wrote:
Don't know whether I mis-typed or you mis-read me. No matter, it was a breakdown in communication. If I said "FDA" (which is a government body) I meant "ADA"...as in American Dental Association...not a government body at all...just a union of concerned professionals.


My apologies - I mis-typed. Either way though I disagree with the concept - so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
"Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it because you're not really looking. You don't really want to know the secret... You want to be fooled." - The Prestige (2006)
rmendez
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I am usually a silent voice when it comes to RNT2. Mostly because our spokesman does a pretty good job at providing public annoucements. Tonight I thought I'd share some of my own personal insights regarding James Riser.

I can remember in the not so distant past when he was someone Jake and I both had the utmost respect for. As collectors we corresponded with him on a regular basis, acquired many of his items including some 1 of 1 pieces and always expressed our gratitude and appreciation for his offerings to the magic community. It wasn't until Mike Brazill was no longer with us that the comradity was lost and through his own personal postings I found out what kind of person he truly was.

I could not believe that someone at his age and disposition would actually stoop so low as to speak of someone else's mother. What, are we still children? I think what finally did it was when he posted something as self righteous as "Do not embarass yourself by trying to purchase my items if I have never heard of you." At that point, I could no longer stomach the thought of his pieces in my showcase and promptly sold them off.

Some might call that eccentric but to me it was nothing more than self righteous, childish and immature ********. I correspond with other well known professional craftsman out there on a regular basis who's names I won't mention and this posting reflects their sentiments exactly. Their question to me was what kind of maniac would destroy his name, credibility, and his sales at the same time?
James Kernen
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I do not like the public image that Jim has portrayed of himself, never have...... I have owned a few of Jim's items from the secondary market (and still own one item) just to educate myself.. As a consumer, why should Jim be viewed any differently than any other busiess... If I were to walk up to a store (his website) and it is said "No cups for you (unless I deem you worthy)" and then I read posts from a wide range of people, novices and pros alike, that bought cups directly from him...it doesn't sound like he has much of a screening process that goes beyond what he can make and not sell to his regulars.... what is left is then available.... unless you are on a black list....

It appears to me that he is a legend in his own mind and he needs the hype and drama or else why would he do it.. I have bought directly from Jake, Brett, and Colin, and they are all people I enjoy doing business with and give a lot more of themselves than just their products.... I choose with my dollars...

James
djkuttdecks
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Quote:
On 2007-12-29 22:20, rmendez wrote:
"Do not embarass yourself by trying to purchase my items if I have never heard of you." At that point, I could no longer stomach the thought of his pieces in my showcase and promptly sold them off.


Wow, That right there will halt my purchases. Funny thing Mr. Riser... until I came to the Café' I never heard of you either Smile and I have a bigger fan base Smile It's so funny how people can get a little self worth and lose touch with reality of the fact that we are all the same.
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