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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Close up drawing duplication (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Lseeyou
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There's one thing that long time performers I think they discovered the same:

When we began in magic we were all looking for all the gimmicks and props we can find and buy... then with time we realize that some effects we do for so long they are the most strong and we realize that it relies on the presentation that we got it better thru the years... we got more confortable and forgot the method and just do it. In the beginning we began to look into our hands and pay attention to us only if we were miss something or if we were hiding things well... now we look into their eyes and comunicate with them (misdirection) because there's nothing to worrie about. Don't you notice when someone is acting strange? To be deceptive you need to practice that's all.

Using billet switch, props, etc.. is like using clothes - there are clothes that fit you better than others... so the answer it's try them and see it you like and feel confortable. So why discuss tastes? Please be happy and entertain people but practice a lot till that "jeans" fits you well Smile

Cheers
IAIN
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england
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I may be wrong, but my "no camera tricks" didn't come with a free bonus disc here in Eng-ur-land...
vai
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Wow, it seems my question has blossomed into a fantastic resource for drawing dupes.

I would like to thank Richard Osterlind and Banachek for their great contributions to this thread and second Looch's sentiment about hoping people digest their advice and suggestions.


There is some truly valuable information here
Check out my releases at http://stores.lulu.com/mentalism
bear trees
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I came up with my own behind the back DD routine that I can do naked no gimmicks no sp nothing,everyone I showed it to it slayed them (not that you would want to see me naked its not pretty).Sit down with some business cards an come up with your own version its worth it.
Richard Osterlind
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Quote:
On 2008-06-01 19:30, bear trees wrote:
I came up with my own behind the back DD routine that I can do naked no gimmicks no sp nothing,everyone I showed it to it slayed them (not that you would want to see me naked its not pretty).Sit down with some business cards an come up with your own version its worth it.


Bear trees,

Just for the record, there was a book I put out in the 70's that talked about such an effect using a fountain pen or a pencil. No gimmicks, no nothing. If I read you right, I think you know what I mean.

Richard
mormonyoyoman
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Quote:
On 2008-06-01 11:38, abraxus wrote:
I may be wrong, but my "no camera tricks" didn't come with a free bonus disc here in Eng-ur-land...


You'll just HAVE to start ordering from osterlindmysteries.com, where all these goodies could be found!

*jeep!
--Grandpa Chet
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
psychicturtle
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Quote:
On 2008-05-30 19:39, Lemniscate wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-05-30 18:50, mormonyoyoman wrote:
Am surprised that no one followed up on Jason's revelation that Vincent's effect is a duplicate (Pun intended!) of Osterlind's "Incredible Mind Reading." Tsk.


In regard to the item Osterlind uses and Vincent's DD approach, they are different and Vincent's happens to be better in my opinion.

I agree, as with Vincent's method (which is totally different) you do not HAVE to put your hands behind your back - which I know some people do not trust. Silly them, eh?!
There are such things as handheld scanners that can easily by put in your back pocket, there you could scan it and have it sent to a PDA or phone etc...

Yes, it is far fetched, but it was a method suggested by a non-magician on seeing a behind the back piece involving a thought of word.
Richard Osterlind
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Quote:
On 2008-06-02 05:39, psychicturtle wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-05-30 19:39, Lemniscate wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-05-30 18:50, mormonyoyoman wrote:
Am surprised that no one followed up on Jason's revelation that Vincent's effect is a duplicate (Pun intended!) of Osterlind's "Incredible Mind Reading." Tsk.


In regard to the item Osterlind uses and Vincent's DD approach, they are different and Vincent's happens to be better in my opinion.

I agree, as with Vincent's method (which is totally different) you do not HAVE to put your hands behind your back - which I know some people do not trust. Silly them, eh?!
There are such things as handheld scanners that can easily by put in your back pocket, there you could scan it and have it sent to a PDA or phone etc...

Yes, it is far fetched, but it was a method suggested by a non-magician on seeing a behind the back piece involving a thought of word.




The Syd Bergson method, which I demonstrated on my latest video, operates under the same conditions, actually better, than Vincent's method. (Unless, of course, you find it necessary to put your hands behind your back when using a TT or Swami) I say that because of the get-ready, preparation, clean-up, etc.

But would you like to explain, Mr. Psychicturtle (Man, where do they get these names?) how to do the effect in front of you if the paper is folded? If you take that part of the effect out of the equation, you might as well throw out the whole idea as there are many others ways (simpler) to do the effect without this approach at all. Or - if you are going to unfold the paper, then why not just look at it?

The conditions of both effects are the same.

Now let me try to clear up what is bothering me about all this and why I brought it up in the first place.

Vincent's effect uses a different gimmick, but not a different method or concept. I first encountered that concept in the late 60's from a marketed effect by Syd Bergson. I decided to put my streamlined version of the effect on the bonus disc as I doubt if there were 1 mentalist in 1000 that knew of this concept. AFTER the disc was out, Vincent published his method. Threads on this board will show how he has been credited over and over again with devising the concept. Not only was his manuscript published after my most recent videos, but over 30 years later than the original effect. He was also over 25 years late from my contributions to Magick. He continues to make no effort to clarify that this concept of duplicating writing off paper is not his idea.

As a point in fact, the gimmick Vincent uses was explored by me years ago in another video for another purpose. But that purpose, if you just use a bit of deduction, is the same.

But most importantly, I will not allow history to be re-written here. The basic concept we are talking about here - WITHOUT USING ANY GIMMICK - has been written about by myself back in Al Mann's publications! Since it was totally my idea, I may just publish it here which would basically totally supersede this whole conversation in the first place!

And to the patient readers of this thread, I totally understand that all magic and mentalism is built on previous ideas. I have no trouble with someone publishing a new double lift as long as they don’t claim they invented the concept of the double lift and do everything in their power to explain to anyone who assumes such, the truth. Even then, I would have let the whole matter drop (which I did for awhile) if Vincent hadn’t lifted something I wrote to him by way of explanation and tried use it as an endorsement of his product. That was just wrong.

Finally, in answer to a number of people who have inquired, I was slated to do a new set of videos this year at L&L. I decided to postpone that production. Over and over again I have seen ideas I have put on my DVD’s (either my own or standard effects in the literature that are the backbone of mentalism) reinvented by a new crop of mentalists and offered to a new generation of performers who think they are their inventions. If mentalists and magicians would do their homework, or seek out the wise council of older magicians, they would know what books to read, what to learn and who did what – FIRST!

Richard
jjsanvert
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This is the saddest post I have read here - and in the meantime, I perfectly understand Mr. Osterlind's feelings... which makes me even sadder.
JJS
markthorold
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We all stand on the shoulders of Gods,shame on you if you don't reach down,ruffle thier hair( or pat thier head ) and say "thank you,without you Id never see so clearly ,you're a great pillar for me to climb upon". Inventors should always explore what has been before and be willing to thank thier predecessors.
Mark
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mormonyoyoman
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So far, every post which hasn't lauded Vincent's derivation, has been deleted. Let's see how long this stands.

*jeep!
--Grandpa Chet
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
Anthony Jacquin
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The fact is Vincent, after personal communication with Richard Osterlind, took his product off of the market, deleted the quote and as advised has not mentioned it since.

Give him a break. Stop stirring. He is a young guy it is his first release. He did not derive it from Bergson or Osterlind. He just did not do enough historical research.

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin

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Richard Osterlind
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Quote:
On 2008-06-02 14:24, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
The fact is Vincent, after personal communication with Richard Osterlind, took his product off of the market, deleted the quote and as advised has not mentioned it since.

Give him a break. Stop stirring. He is a young guy it is his first release. He did not derive it from Bergson or Osterlind. He just did not do enough historical research.

Anthony



Anthony,

Stop stirring? Look again at everytime this subject has come up. It was only after someone posted negative remarks about my offering or misinformation about the other, that the turmoil started.

And how do you know where he derived it from? For 30 years the principle lies dormant, then, right after my videos, here it is.

Richard
Anthony Jacquin
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It is the 'turmoil starters' that I am requesting stop stirring not you Richard. They are simply trying to bait you.

And the reason I know he did not derive it from you or Bergson is that he was performing his dupe before your videos came out and he did not know who Bergson was until the full history was set out.

Best regards,

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
Updated for 2016

Now on Kindle and Audible!
Richard Osterlind
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Quote:
On 2008-06-02 16:36, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
It is the 'turmoil starters' that I am requesting stop stirring not you Richard. They are simply trying to bait you.

And the reason I know he did not derive it from you or Bergson is that he was performing his dupe before your videos came out and he did not know who Bergson was until the full history was set out.

Best regards,

Anthony



Anthony,

Giving Vincent the benefit of a doubt, please explain this. He did contact me, supposedly before his effect was marketed, and asked me about the piece. He knew of my videos at that time since he mentioned them. On those videos I clearly explain the history of the effect. Now, if you are going to market something, and if you are informed of other products using the same methodology, aren't you compelled to research that before you market yours.

But as I mentioned before, I am not even arguing about something that is mine. It was Syd Bergson's idea (unless someone pre-dated him which I don't know about) Many younger mentalists are being led to believe that Vincent invented the "principle." That is what needs clarification especially after all the facts are known. I put that item on the video to give Syd Bergson the credit for a wonderful principle. Regardless of what you say, the coincidence seems uncanny.

But be that as it may, I am constantly held to the fire everytime I release something. I go out of my way to give credit, ask for the rights or pay the creator to use an idea. Why shouldn't Vincent play under the same rules?

And with all that said, I think that is enough from me for this topic.

Richard
Marc Spelmann
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I wont pass judgement as I like anyone else apart from Vincent knows how he came about the principle.

My only comment is that with the in vogue nature of mentalism and mentalists many newbies are unread and their historical education only goes back to when Derren came out. I am not suggesting that this is the case with Vincent.

My history, like many others, Andy Nyman, Marc Paul, Graham Jolly, John Archer etc stems from prior to when mentalism was considered trendy. My start in mentalism was back in the early 1992 when I picked up an old copy of Annemans One Man Mind Reading Act, this went onto 13 Steps, Practical Mental Miracles, anything by Al Baker, Richard Osterlind (back in the pamphlet days) Max Maven, etc.. My historical knowledge continues to grow even to this day.

When I released my first DVDs I paid some good names to research the various routines I genuinely created independently, thus anything that was too close to others previous releases was eliminated from the set and where credit and approval was required I made sure it happened, even though it took months.

I always say that I stand on the shoulders of giants and I genuinely mean that, you have to know what came before in order to create something new. With my company with Peter Nardi (Inner Mind Productions) we turn away many 'inventors' who approach us with new effects as they have reinvented the wheel.

Vincent has done the right thing in taking all reference of his effect down. I am sure he will be back with something we can all enjoy.

Ramble over..

Good thoughts to all..

MS
It's not goodbye, just see you later...
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