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Kevin Viner
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Here's the deal. And Danny, no, I do not have any agenda. As I said earlier, I do not know Matthew, and I simply quoted what he told me via email. I had originally posted something in my blog that talked badly about the BOR book he released. He asked me to remove the post, and I did. I have no reason not to believe him, as I have never personally seen the book.

On to the matter at hand. I'm just sick of most magicians being terrible businesspeople. Lack of supply creates demand. Increased demand means you can charge more. Simple economics. The fact is, most people use the Organic Search. And that is why my site is optimized. Search "San Diego Magicians" or "Corporate Magicians", and I'm on the first page of results. "Trade Show Magicians" and "Los Angeles Magicians" put me on page 2. Do I get shows this way? Absolutely. Many more than I would through AdWords. But the thing is, I also book shows through AdWords. And yes, some people DO click ads first.

Answer this for me: Would you give somebody a dollar to receive a dollar back? Yes (unless you thought the dollar being returned was counterfeit). People exchange money in banks all the time. Now, would you give a dollar to give 2 dollars back? Of course. So let's say that $500/month, or even $100/month, is invested in AdWords, and you book 1 show a month, or maybe 2, or maybe one every 2 months. Isn't that worth it if you are still earning a profit? I signed up for PartyPop against the advice of many. (Why pay for online advertising? blah blah blah) Well, I just got back from a $3000 + transportation and hotel booking. And guess where they found me?

The truth of the matter is, it is NOT "Lots of hits for free vs. lots of hits I can buy," as Danny says. It is combining all the marketing tools available to you into a marketing PACKAGE.
Al Angello
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Kevin,
No one said that AdWords do not work, but search engine placement and AdWords serve the same purpose, which is hits on your web site.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com
http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/
"Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone"
Kevin Viner
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Al,

Perhaps you misunderstood my earlier post. Correlation indicates the strength and direction of a linear relationship between two random variables. To call the relationship a correlation, you would have to introduce a 3rd random variable, namely hits on a web site. Otherwise, there is NO correlation. AdWords does not affect organic results, and vice versa.

I do, however, agree with AdWords and strategic SEO both serving to get hits on your web site. My question to you is, why are you so outspoken against AdWords? Your SEO "secrets", as you like to call them, are no big secret. You have descriptive text on your main page which matches your Title. You also have good meta tags and descriptions, and seem to have a few good incoming links. This is not a high placement "secret". It is the same way I consistently rank well for keywords.

Hits on a website are useless without conversions. If somebody does not contact you, the hit is fairly pointless. AdWords allows TRACKABLE results that can be tweaked and improved. The result is a HIGHLY TARGETED marketing effort that can and will bring in additional income if used correctly. I can understand not wishing to go through the trouble of setting it up, especially if you are already VERY happy with the amount of work you are doing and wish neither to perform more or to perform less for more money. If this is not the case, however, I do not see the issue that everybody seems to take with AdWords.

By the way, my posts are not intended to come off as rude or inflammatory. I simply love the BUSINESS of magic, and have personally seen many magicians struggle to book shows at a rate AND consistency that they are happy with. AdWords is simply another tool to help do this.
Al Angello
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Kevin,
Everything you say is correct. My meta tags, title, and key words are the results of years of tweaking. There are other factors which I will not discuss here, but the idea of paying Google for hits just upsets my stomach. I am very high as a juggler and magician in my area, and I intend to keep it that way.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com
http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/
"Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone"
Kevin Viner
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Fair enough. Smile
Dannydoyle
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"Would you spend a dollar to get a dollar back?" Well, truthfully, NO. Waste of my time. May as well play a change machine in Vegas and hope to get rich. Where is the payoff?

See, slogans and such are great rah-rah-rah crap. If they get you up in the morning and get you moving on doing things, great for you. Don't spout them as gospel because, when you see it in the end like the one above and examine them, they look kind of silly.

Here is my problem with ANY form of Internet-based marketing in general. It takes away the "personal" aspect of what is being sold. There is almost no way (and I did say almost) to put yourself forth as a person. They, in general, are shopping on price when they find you on the Internet. Put yourself on "Party Pop" and you are there with thousands of others. Odds are when they need another entertainer, they are going right back where they found you to get a better deal.

Sales is about relationships. It is about finding a need and filling a need. I know this is very old school and it goes against the conventional wisdom of the pre-college grad crowd, but it works. It is absolutely the truth.

The product you are, or should, be selling is YOU. Not magic, not even entertainment in general, but YOU. How can you get you across in an ad on ANY web page? When people Google anything, they are not looking for a personal touch at all.

I am not saying one way is better than another, or any is right or wrong. I am saying that many are getting away from what marketing and sales is based upon, and it does not help them.

I don't care how many creative and new ways you have to do whatever. There is NO replacement for walking in and a smile and a handshake and doing sales. This has not changed since the first person had an extra something he wanted to put in someone else's hand for a price.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
John Martin
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Sorry, Kevin, I Googled "San Diego Magicians"...you came in 11th, and that's not ****ing another 10 local business. I googled "Corporate Magicians" and you came in 1st...on PAGE TWO. I think for my money, I'll stick with Al's system.

All the best,

John
Kevin Viner
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Danny,

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said. If you look at my website , you will NOT see buzzwords. You will not see sales letters. What you WILL see is a well-written site that helps people find me. I don't book the shows through my website. I book the shows through ME. They find my website, and they call me. After speaking with me, they like our conversation and decide to book me.

If you have people go try and find cheaper performers after working with you, maybe you should reanalyze your performance. After people have worked with me, they work with me again. And again. And again. And guess who they come to when they need advice for their next event? Me. Not always, but often enough. I'm not trying to brag, but what you have said is simply NOT true.

Online marketing is simply a connector. And that is what the "old-school" marketers don't seem to understand. It helps connect people who need services to those who can provide them. And my website is what separates me from the rest. There may be many magicians on PartyPop, but that doesn't make it not worth it. An investment of about $300 has booked me about $3700 in shows. It's definitely worked for me.

One last note. When people Google things, they ARE looking for a personal touch. They are looking for a performer who looks the part, and a performer who seems to have an attitude and style that will fit their event. When we talk on the phone is when the true SALE happens.
Kevin Viner
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John,

Try again, my friend. I just searched on Google, and I come up result #8 on page 1 for "Corporate Magicians". I come in at result #9 for "San Diego Magicians". Both 1st page. If you would like, I can send you a screen shot. Perhaps you have your Google settings tweaked to show less results per page?

And finally, what exactly is Al's "system"? As I have said in the past, SEO is simply good keywords combined with good text and incoming links. Standard SEO practice.
Dannydoyle
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Kevin, just so you know, as I am not certain how your comprehension skills are, I DON'T HAVE PROBLEMS WITH PEOPLE SHOPPING PRICE WITH ME. LOL. I was simply saying that when you do things like this, you attract price shoppers. It is a fact.

YOU are the Internet, no-personal-contact, marketing expert who seems not to be able to crack the top 10 in Google ranking.

Go ahead, Google me and see what you even find. Good luck.

My advice before making comments which make you look even dimmer is a bit of research as to who you may be speaking with. Try to find me on ANY web page like Party Pop, go ahead. I think I may be on 1 web page.

What I have said is 100% true. Sorry if it bothers you.

You just spouted phrases and buzz words, which are just amazingly silly.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Kevin Viner
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Danny,

Once again, you seem to have your facts a bit mixed up. You'll notice that my first line of the post was: "I agree wholeheartedly with what you have said." I never argued that marketing is not about connections.

Also, I never called myself an SEO expert. I merely said that I know quite a bit about it. And once again, I AM in the top 10. Don't say that I can't crack it in Google when I am looking at it right now.

I'm not here to make enemies, but you seem to find entertainment in confrontation. Well, then, here goes. I took your challenge to Google you and find you, and I did a search for "'Danny Doyle' hypnotist". Here's what I found (on the first page, mind you):

"We met up for dinner, did some bartering on giant bottles of tequila, and headed off to see a hypnotist show. The hypnotist's (one Danny Doyle) show got off to a rough start when during the introduction the narrated voice-over said 'Hypnotism has been around for a thousand years. No one know when it began.' I turned to my cousin Jeremy and said 'Sure we do. It was a thousand years ago. You just said that.'

Danny Doyle succeeded in hypnotizing two out of twenty five people, but their spell (or whatever) wore off by the time his big finale came around and it failed miserably. Danny Doyle bombed."

Now this is NOT meant to be a personal attack, and quite frankly, this could be another Danny Doyle entirely. But, just letting you know, that's what comes up.
magicofCurtis
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Like any advertisement, if targeted it will work better. Sometimes an ad will bring in a good client that will pay way more than the ad, and someone that the likelihood you would never have been able to reach.
Dannydoyle
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An amazing review by drunks on a blog who hated everything. LOL
They preface it with declaring drunk Monday, in which they start Tequila shots at 10 and black out by 4, then start it again at 8.

Yep, just the people you love to work for. LOL Try a room full of them by 10PM when the show starts, and see how the show goes.

Since you want to read and post random reviews, try these.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserRevie......ula.html

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserRevie......ula.html

http://cancun-hotels.tripadvisor.com/Sho......ula.html

So what is your point? That I work enough that I biff shows? Yep, biff them regularly. Maybe if you never did a bad show, you need to work a bit more.

As for another person, heck no. I say I have biffed shows for drunks. Heck, even if they are not drunk, I do biff shows.

So now, since this is not personal and you're not attacking, you will provide the reviews of your work for us. This is what we are doing, right? Not attacking people or just posting negative crap we find and not posting positive stuff.

I see you are yet another with an "original blend of comedy and magic". I can find hundreds of listing with the same claim, Kevin. Just how original is that, anyhow? I am not attacking, just asking. I mean, you may have been the first, but I doubt it.

Funny, for someone so "original", you seem to mirror almost every other magician out there.

Still having trouble finding any reviews, good or bad about your show, except for the claims you make yourself on the web site. Mind you, I am not attacking. I may just be computer inept is all.

What was your point again? I know you claim you were not attacking, as I wasn't, but this information posted here, along with more, is easy to find. You chose to act like a jerk. So go ahead, keep it up. Just attack, cool by my brother. But let us know how original you are.

Heck, even your "advice" is just spouting buzz words and nonsense.

"Would you give a dollar to get one back?" What a lame question. NO. Go to a change machine.

So if you're not attacking, then don't attack. Or hide behind it like a little school girl and do attack, which is what you did.

Hope you know I wasn't attacking, just not able to find anything original about you or anything about a show review YOU didn't write yourself.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
shawn popp
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This is unbelievable! If Google AdWords doesn't work for you, or you don't like it, DON'T USE IT!!
I've found it works for me. It also works for my competition. JEEZ! Can't we all just agree to disagree?
Dannydoyle
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I was able to find a few things.

http://itricks.com/news/?p=211

This was by far my favorite.

Then, the painfully long sub trunk routine. NOT ORIGINAL, I MAY ADD. But the applause is deafening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-6x4fztCag


http://itricks.com/news/?p=211

Now what marketing advice do you have for us, Kevin?

Wanna keep up the Google war?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
John Martin
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And POOF, there goes Kevin!!!
Kevin Viner
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Hey, everybody, I'm still here. Just don't have time to sit at my computer all day. Danny, that was a while ago, and it has been discussed at length here. You also failed to discuss to ending of the problem:

http://itricks.com/news/?p=213

I have also discussed it on my blog:

http://magicforaliving.blogspot.com/2008......ket.html

As for the "painfully slow" sub trunk, that was the first time it was ever performed on stage. If you would like me to post a revised video for you to view, I would be glad to. I think you would notice it is much faster. Any further questions?

And Danny, for your pre-college grad crowd comment, please note that I hold a degree in Mathematics from the University of California, Irvine.
magicofCurtis
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And poof goes this thread, hehehe.
Dannydoyle
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Well, I gotta say, it strikes me you do magic like a math major.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
magicofCurtis
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And, Danny, how does a math major do magic?
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