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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Dvd, Video tape, Audio tape & Compact discs. » » Technique Master by Ichiro Araki (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Steven Leung
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Dear Chris,

Thanks for your mention about Aldo's long gone DVD project with that company. Well, that's enough said... magic is business after all.

How about we all screw credits / ethics now that might give magic a chance to survivie...
Most memorable moment - with Maestro Juan Tamariz & Consuelo Lorgia in FISM Busan 2018.

"Being fooled by a trick doesn't always mean they are having a good time" - Homer Liwag

https://hhpresents.com/
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Ben Train
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First, let me state that the few interactions I've had with Mr. Hallas have all been nice, polite, and friendly.

That said-

If a criminal organization offered you cash to be involved with a murder, would you do it? What about money to be a watchman for a robbery- not really "involved", but helps them continue to steal?

I hope the answer would be no. Yet, by jumping in bed with magic makers it's THE SAME THING. They steal, rip of artist, and release crappy, shoddy material.

You video, as are all videos, is "judged on its own merit"- but part of that means taking into consideration who produced it (among others). In this case, purchasing a magic makers product (even one that's legitimate, as yours might well be) still supports theft.

Quote:
On 2008-01-20 11:42, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
I once asked Aldo about working for a company that had no scruples. He said " Chris, I only care that I get paid". I love honesty like that.

Paul, thanks for the response. Your honesty was also refreshing!


Chris,

You seem like a nice guy, and I've enjoyed many of your posts. But this one is deplorable, and makes me sick.

How can you support such a thing, with such a caviler attitude? If I posted what I really though, this post would be deleted (or worse). Feel free to email me at magic@bentrain.ca and I'll be happy to chat with you more.

I hope you appreciate the honesty.
Ben
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.

Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for all sorts of FREE VIRTUAL PROGRAMMING for magicians!
Review King
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Quote:
On 2008-01-21 01:04, BenTrain (Nordatrax) wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-01-20 11:42, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
I once asked Aldo about working for a company that had no scruples. He said " Chris, I only care that I get paid". I love honesty like that.

Paul, thanks for the response. Your honesty was also refreshing!


Chris,

You seem like a nice guy, and I've enjoyed many of your posts. But this one is deplorable, and makes me sick.

How can you support such a thing, with such a caviler attitude? If I posted what I really though, this post would be deleted (or worse). Feel free to email me at magic@bentrain.ca and I'll be happy to chat with you more.

I hope you appreciate the honesty.
Ben


Ben, you lost me. What have I said that is so deplorable?
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
Ben Train
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Chris,

unless your post was meant to be sarcastic, and I missed it (in which case I apologize) I think the reason for my displeasure is self evident.

Ben
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.

Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for all sorts of FREE VIRTUAL PROGRAMMING for magicians!
Review King
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Quote:
On 2008-01-21 09:00, BenTrain (Nordatrax) wrote:
Chris,

unless your post was meant to be sarcastic, and I missed it (in which case I apologize) I think the reason for my displeasure is self evident.

Ben


Ben, no worries. I understand how you feel about this company. I thought all my posts about them made it clear how I feel.

Best,
Chris
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
Paul
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Ben, regarding: "First, let me state that the few interactions I've had with Mr. Hallas have all been nice, polite, and friendly."

Of course they were, and I would hope they would continue to be so. I'm one of the nicest guys in magic, and from your posts you seem a reasonably knowledgeable young card guy.

I'm not going to defend MM or Tannen or Robbins or L & L or Ellusionist or Penguin etc. or any company that has taken someone else's product. But I've been in magic long enough to have seen it all before, and companies come and go. It's almost amusing to see some people bash one company for pirating yet at the same time often support others that have done so. But I will defend myself.

Your analogy : "If a criminal organization offered you cash to be involved with a murder, would you do it? What about money to be a watchman for a robbery- not really "involved", but helps them continue to steal? I hope the answer would be no. Yet, by jumping in bed with magic makers it's THE SAME THING. They steal, rip of artist, and release crappy, shoddy material. "

Of course my answer would be no. Even the watchman or driver for a robbery IS involved and part of the 'team'. I worked in security for 15 years and was closer to that kind of thing than you might think SmileAnd usually there are threats of or actual physical violence involved.

The reality is that it is NOT the same thing. For the first you can be arrested and charged because it is a crime. If it was the same, many dealers would have been locked up by now, but the truth is they are guilty of poor ethics and judgement not criminal offences. Just as one sees other 'Dyson' style vacuum cleaners, cars that look alike from different makers and plenty of items on supermarket shelves with similar labels and packaging.

No, the genuine crooked dealers are those that take your money and don't send the goods, or don't pay their advertising and scam cash from people and in some cases that CAN lead to prosecution. And of course, the magicians that actually steal product from dealers stands at conventions as has happened to many dealers, me included. That IS a law that is being broken.

Re:
"Your video, as are all videos, is "judged on its own merit"- but part of that means taking into consideration who produced it (among others). In this case, purchasing a magic makers product (even one that's legitimate, as yours might well be) still supports theft."

We all have our own viewpoints and where we draw the line, and I'm sure some people will take into consideration who produced a product, that certainly did cross my mind when I did the project, and people are welcome to do that. But I do disagree that my product supports theft. Everything should be judged on its own merit, and in this case if not for MM filming this project it would not be available at all. At least people now have a choice as to whether they want to buy it or not and I respect their decision, but at least they have a choice, and that is better than not having that choice in the first place.

Paul.
Review King
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Quote:
On 2008-01-09 22:14, wpt1031 wrote:
Indeed it does look good. And Ben Salinas translates for Mr. Araki on this DVD.


Ah, the blind leading the blind!
:rotf:
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
wpt1031
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Quote:
On 2008-01-21 18:08, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-01-09 22:14, wpt1031 wrote:
Indeed it does look good. And Ben Salinas translates for Mr. Araki on this DVD.


Ah, the blind leading the blind!
:rotf:
Not sure which way that comment is going. Please elaborate Chris.
Review King
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Quote:
On 2008-01-21 21:19, wpt1031 wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-01-21 18:08, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-01-09 22:14, wpt1031 wrote:
Indeed it does look good. And Ben Salinas translates for Mr. Araki on this DVD.


Ah, the blind leading the blind!
:rotf:
Not sure which way that comment is going. Please elaborate Chris.


It's like going to watch a Mud Hens game: you have to take into account the weather, who's driving, etc.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
wpt1031
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Quote:
On 2008-01-21 21:42, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-01-21 21:19, wpt1031 wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-01-21 18:08, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-01-09 22:14, wpt1031 wrote:
Indeed it does look good. And Ben Salinas translates for Mr. Araki on this DVD.


Ah, the blind leading the blind!
:rotf:
Not sure which way that comment is going. Please elaborate Chris.


It's like going to watch a Mud Hens game: you have to take into account the weather, who's driving, etc.
Got yeah. You a Mud Hens fan Chris?
Review King
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On 2008-01-21 22:52, wpt1031 wrote:

Got yeah. You a Mud Hens fan Chris?

_____________________________________________________

Two great things Ohio has to offer: Toldeo and the Mud Hens and Cincinatti and their Chili!!!!

I wish I lived closer for both!!!
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
seraph127
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I saw the trailer, and it seemed odd: I bought Card Master, featuring this same person, and he exhibited far better chops (to me) than on this preview. Maybe this was a bad session?
There are many tricks, and many effects, but rarely a Grand Effect. There are many entertainers, but few real magicians. Many technicians, but few artists who use their art to explore their vision. - Derren Brown, Absolute Magic
Ben Train
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Paul,

Although my watchman/robber analogy may have confused matters, what I should have clarified is that MM promotes theft of an artist's ideas (not so much stealing money from customers... although their actions DO lead to less money in many artist's pockets...)- it's an ethics issue.

The bottom line is that if I were to send money to MM for your dvd, which you authorized, it still gives an unethical company more money to produce a DIFFERENT, unauthorized, product.

So, while I'm sure your dvd is great, the only way I'll see it is if someone lends it to me. The same goes for ANY MM dvd.

All the best,
Ben
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.

Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for all sorts of FREE VIRTUAL PROGRAMMING for magicians!
Review King
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Magic Makers could be a premeir company. Simon Lovell, Randy Wakeman have killer chops and are two of my favorites ( haven't seen Paul's DVD, but his posts on hear show he knows his stuff ). The J Team DVD set contained some of the finest close-up material out there.

MM could easily be the good guys of Magic if they wanted to.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
Paul
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Ben,
Re: "The bottom line is that if I were to send money to MM for your dvd, which you authorized, it still gives an unethical company more money to produce a DIFFERENT, unauthorized, product."

Actually, it might fund a totally original product also, I know there are some in the works. However, people generally judge by track record. You could actually send money to me for my DVD and none of that would go to MM at all, but that's beside the point.

Promote - encourage the growth of. Frankly I don't believe they are encouraging other people to steal ideas, that becomes a personal choice in what has become a downloadable piracy generation.

I don't condone anyone's ideas being taken (and it has happened to me by others)and I will not defend the actions of MM. But as someone who has been in and around magic a long time it seems MM is simply the current 'bad boy/whipping boy and whilst attention is loudly directed there the piracy elsewhere is more or less ignored. If rather than judge items on an individual basis one decides to shun an entire company (which if everone could be persuaded to join in theoretically would be effective)it seems to me hypocritical if those standards are not applied to others. For instance that means one would not shop anywhere where one finds a pirated/suspect item, be it a magic shop or major wholesaler.

Since I doubt you could find me a major wholesaler without some pirated items in stock, if fairness applied and they and the shops they supplied were not dealt with, I think they would not be many people on this or any other forum buying magic at all! The catalogues of Tannen and Robbins for instance have far more pirated items in than MM have ever produced.

Of course, it would benefit some wholesalers if some of the others went out of business because there are too many of them constantly trying to pump out stuff for the "What's new?" crowd (who would be better served studying what's old). So sometimes I wonder about hidden agendas and who is being sent out to fire their bullets for them.

Tim Ellis had an interesting site on pirated items, but almost seems to suggest that every item there was pirated by MM which is not the case.

I'm sure Ben, that you wouldn't buy anything from anyone that dealt with these other wholesalers, or L & L or some of the other producers that might not have paid people for their ideas, but I'm sure you have. Which is why when you look at the bigger picture, the idea of judging individual items makes more sense.

Chris said: "MM could easily be the good guys of Magic if they wanted to"

Now that is an interesting observation, and so very true. MM is a relatively recent company. It has time to evolve. Remember all the flak when Ellusionist started? They are now pretty much accepted with their own customer base. Remember Jay Sankey's comments on this forum regarding Penguin magic? Even some of Jay's products appear to have been re-invented. Remember Charles Gauci's argument with Murphy's Magic over a rip on his product? In a Tannen catalogue you still might find variations on the Ken Brooke range. From India there are many versions of old Ken Brooke and Supreme items that are stocked in brick and mortar magic shops all over the world (and plenty of e-shops).

Bob Hummer never trusted any dealer, he thought they were all out to steal his ideas. Smile

There's a thread elsewhere on patents, listing magic and illusion patents (patents only last so long of course, which is why generic drug companies flourish.)Is it in an interesting thread because people simply want to know how its done or because they might make the items up? There are plenty of posts on this forum where people have seen something and want to know how it's done or where they can get it so they can include it in their acts also. Ethical?

Ethics ARE a worthy discussion point, but like democracy it can't be enforced from the top down, the attitude has to grow from the bottom up.

As Jesus said, "Let him who has not sinned cast the first stone... Mom, put that rock down."

Paul.
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Quote:
On 2008-01-25 17:59, Paul wrote:

Tim Ellis had an interesting site on pirated items, but almost seems to suggest that every item there was pirated by MM which is not the case.


Perhaps if you took a look at the site, you'll see that though there are a lot of MM items listed (along with items from other manufacturers) it's not "almost every item".


http://www.magicfakers.blogspot.com/
Paul
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It's a while since I've been Tim, so there may be many more items listed since my early visits. In fact I will take another look, because it is an interesting site. But the very name of the site magicfakers which rhymes with MagicMakers suggests they really are the main target and I'm sure many people that visit come away with that impression. Had it been called Robbins Robbers or Tannen Takers again the perception might have been different Smile

Enjoyed your lecture in Reading PA by the way and used your Tim Card Poker Deal for a while. Had I the time I could probably dig out tons of pirated items for you to list but my time is really better occupied elsewhere. Have you got The Premonition Box listed? stocked by Murphys? Looks like Peter Scarlett's Pimpernel Card Case but with an Eddie Joseph Premonition routine included. Just noticed that today. Could notice them everyday if I spent time looking on dealer sites.

By the way to get back on topic with this thread, I'll probobaly get a copy of the DVD that started it all, but it will be some time after Blackpool before I get around to reviewing it.

Paul.
Review King
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I think this is the first time in any of these exchanges I have learned some things.

And it's refreshing to hear Paul not go on the usual rant of someone that did a DVD set with Magic Makers saying "you guys are lost. Magic Maker's are trying to change the industry...Rob Stiff is one of the nicest guys you'll meeet...We talked for hours about the direction of magic..."

What I'm saying is that Paul Hallas has come across as a smart, knowledgable, professional. I never knew he even had a DVD out before this thread. I've been reading his posts and found him to either helping folks or giving great input to a thread.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
Ben Train
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Hey Chris,

No one is challenging Paul's qualifications as a magician or as a good person (though, Socrates might challenge my definition of a "good" person!). As far as magicmakers becoming one of the good guys... I don't see it happening. Virtually every product I have seen has been subpar and they don't seem to value ethics or quality- in fact, its fairly apparent the only thing they care about is overhead and profits.

Paul,

Although you make some interesting points, you don't really address my main arguments. I'm not talking about other companies or discussing their code of ethics- I'm talking about MM.

Your examples about other companies and artists don't really hold weight. NO company in recent times has been as bad as MM, which is why they are the posterboys for unethical business practice in magic.

Saying that, stealing is wrong. Stealing ideas is stealing. Ipso facto- stealing ideas is wrong.

Quote:
On 2008-01-25 17:59, Paul wrote:
Ethics ARE a worthy discussion point, but like democracy it can't be enforced from the top down, the attitude has to grow from the bottom up.

Paul.


You lost me here. I'm trying to change things from the bottom up. You disagree with my stance (at least in regards to your work)... can you elaborate?
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.

Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for all sorts of FREE VIRTUAL PROGRAMMING for magicians!
Review King
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Quote:
On 2008-01-25 22:28, BenTrain (Nordatrax) wrote:
Hey Chris,

No one is challenging Paul's qualifications as a magician or as a good person (though, Socrates might challenge my definition of a "good" person!). As far as magicmakers becoming one of the good guys... I don't see it happening. Virtually every product I have seen has been subpar and they don't seem to value ethics or quality- in fact, its fairly apparent the only thing they care about is overhead and profits.



It would make it easier if everything that MM put out sucked. I guess I'm looking at a bigger picture. I WISH they were the good guys in magic because there have been DVD's that have been very good. Tne J Team, Simon lovell and Randy Wakeman have had excellent DVD's. I mean, worker material ( ok, I dig those guys, but their work elsewhere speaks for istelf ).

There is another product they have produced that is above par, but I won't mention it.

Guys, the dialog we have is excellent. Let's keep it cival and maybe we can make progress. If it goes ugly, the thread get's locked and we don't move forward.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
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