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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Dvd, Video tape, Audio tape & Compact discs. » » Technique Master by Ichiro Araki (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Ben Train
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I might argue that everything I have seen them put out HAS been crap. I'm covering my ass by not listing specific titles, but rest assured, I've seen quite a few.

More importantly though- even if EVERYTHING was good, we've got to look at the bigger picture. In this case that is supporting a crooked company.

Ben
p.s.
Who, or what, is the J team?
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.

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Paul
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At the moment, I think the only dealer that may change the way magical DVD's are sold, Chris, is Aldo Colombini, who has now released about half a dozen for $10 each, which may cause other DVD suppliers to rethink their 3 and 4 DVD sets.

But back to Ben's latest comments:

"Although you make some interesting points..,"
Thank you Smile

".. you don't really address my main arguments. I'm not talking about other companies or discussing their code of ethics- I'm talking about MM. "

But that was MY point, you are ONLY talking about MM, a code of ethics should be the same for ALL dealers.

"Your examples about other companies and artists don't really hold weight. NO company in recent times has been as bad as MM"

Why don't they hold weight? If other companies have pirate products why should they be let off the hook? To do a comparable analogy to one of your earlier ones, mugging someone for a purse or robbing a bank, it's still robbery so why should the amount of pirated stuff be a deciding factor? How many years do you consider recent times? Are Ellusionist and Penguin not considered recent times?

And are bigger older companies still trading that might have pirated items listed let off the hook? Is there a time frame after which it is okay?

RE: "You lost me here. I'm trying to change things from the bottom up. You disagree with my stance (at least in regards to your work)... can you elaborate?.

My apologies, I wandered, my thoughts were on ethics in magic generally, whereas you seem ONLY focused on ethics with regard to MM. And you are right, you ARE from the ground up. Though my viewpoint was more on magicians in general that download whatever they can for free of others material in pdf or visual format, photocopy books, put up magic web sites giving away free the material of others in the guise of teaching.

Heck, I once visited a magic club that had a teach in before I started, that taught someone else's trick then sold versions of it that had been made up for those that wanted it. Then there's those that watch trick dems on line fifty times or so they can figure it out and make it up. That's what I really meant about a shift in attitude from the bottom up.

RE: "Saying that, stealing is wrong. Stealing ideas is stealing. Ipso facto- stealing ideas is wrong."

We've already established that and I agree so there's no need to repeat it.

Paul.
Review King
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"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
THEGUY26 (Will Swanson)
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Quote:
On 2008-01-21 22:54, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
On 2008-01-21 22:52, wpt1031 wrote:

Got yeah. You a Mud Hens fan Chris?

_____________________________________________________

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I wish I lived closer for both!!!


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martini
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Greetings Ben;
I was getting ready to post something here, but seeing that my DVD on card splitting is considered crap, it does not make much sense to even bother.

I do want to thank you for letting me know that I spent the last 35 years working on crap.

All the Best
Marty
Paul
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***, I was attempting to add to my post and you guys posted, made it impossible and I lost it, lol. I am not typing that again.

Marty, lets be honest, we've both been working on magic crap for over 35 years when we should have been creating pet rocks and cabbage patch dolls.

It's past my bedtime zzzz
Paul.
Magiguy
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Time well spent, Marty. Your work has literally changed my life. Bold statement, but I really mean it.

BTW.. Paul, you are also one of my magic heroes.


Okay guys,
Back to you and your silly rants...
Review King
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Marty ( MARTINI ) is one of the greatest, sweetest guys on the planet!

Lickity Split "The Art of Card Splitting Card" is a ground breaking, inside peek on card splitting and gaff card making.

http://www.martinismagic.com

And, IMHO, he's the GREATEST gaff card maker on the planet!
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
martini
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Greetings Guys;
Now stop it, you're making me blush.lol Your comments are most appreciated.

Paul, what do you mean, past your bedtime? you should be up till at least 3:00 that's when the really good congress and senate arguements come on cable, now there is entertainment.
Pet Rocks and Cabbage Patch Dolls, it seems like just yesterday.lol

You make a good point Paul about Aldo's prices on DVD's. We are looking at a whole different magic business in the years ahead and sadly many magic shops will vanish as all of this works its way out.

While some may say that one particular company is to blame (which I highly doubt)magicians should really take a hard look at themselves. Education is the key to keeping the world of magic alive.
I have listened to magicians call for boycotts on magic shops that carry certain products. All that will do is help put those shops out of business, then where will they go for their props?
I was in Mingus Magic a few months back there in Reading, and two young men in maybe their late 20's came in with a list of things they wanted to see. Wayne showed those items that he had in stock but yet after seeing about 6 items they looked around and were leaving. The one guy said to the other as they were leaving, "You buy the two that we like on E-bay, and I'll make one of each up for both of us and then we can re-sell the one we bought" Duh! There is part of the problem.

The same is with all the sites that are putting manuscripts, books, videos, and such up on line so people can download them for free. Where did this mentality come from? when did it start? Magic Makers can't be blamed for that.

Like I said, education is the key. Look at how few books are being produced today on magic. I have heard it over and over, "I cannot learn from a book, I need to see it done" Well,if you cannot learn from a book, what is the sense in having libraries, book stores, newspapers and such? & if you cannot learn from a book, who taught you to read and write? how did you learn your job? etc.

It is certainly a different mindset today, like I said Education is the key.

Ben, I see that you are passionate against Magic Makers and that is your right. I personally do not agree with all of your feelings, but will defend your right to feel that way and say what you feel.

On the other hand, like Paul had brought up, you can't just single out one company unless you attack all of them that are involved. And if we go back to that word Education, you will find that the copying of magic effects is not new by any means, it has been around as long as magic itself.

If you look back even to the IBM & SAM some of their past presidents were some of the worst offenders, yet the organizations are not tossing them out of the clubs.
Anyway, I have run on too long and am taking up too much space, that's what happens when you get old, the other thing is I can't remember where I sat my beer.

Everyone Take Care & Enjoy Life, it goes by far too fast.
All the Best
Marty
Paul
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Quote:
On 2008-01-26 00:15, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
J Team- KILLER magic:
http://www.johnborn.com/products_cutting_edge.html


Personally, this collection did not do a lot for me. But then, I'm hardly going to use a card to nipple ring in the restaurant SmileI didn't use anything from this collection. I should perhaps go back and watch it again, maybe I never finished it.
Different strokes for different folks. John certainly became better known after this DVD set though.

This thread is now starting to wander all over the place, I think more or less everything that can be said has been said. The last thing we want is listings of different products in a thread asking about one specific DVD.

Over to you..

Paul.
Ben Train
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Sigh.

First, Marty, I was sneaky with my comment on MM producing crap. I stand by what I said- VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING I HAVE SEEN THEM RELEASE HAS BEEN CRAP. That said, I'm not saying I've seen your video, so it might very well be the exception. Or maybe not.

Second, and more importantly,
This topic starter about a video MM produced, and then shifted into a discussion on why many people wouldn't purchase the video- one of them being not wanting to support MM. A discussion on MM's ethics followed, with several people who had financial interest in the company posting that "some of what they do is bad but my project with them isn't". Then, anytime a point was brought up, it was challenged (which is fine) by "what about the other companies?"

This is silly. I'm not discussing the other companies. I'm talking about MM. I've never defended any other company's infractions, nor am I saying it's ok to look away. I repeat- stealing is bad regardless of who's doing it.

If we want to change the focus of this discussion to magical ethics in general, fine. I would be happy to post on a new thread you start. But this one is about MM.

Happy Holidays,
Ben
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Paul
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Ben is right in that the discussion broadened considerably into ethics generally but I do think one has to look at the bigger picture to get things into perspective.

Ben, you said: "Second, and more importantly,
This topic starter about a video MM produced, and then shifted into a discussion on why many people wouldn't purchase the video-"

Well it started about a DVD, but it was your posting that really shifted the topic onto the ethics of MM. Well, there were a couple of postings from people who said they wouldn't buy it because it was a MM product. And many might not, but many didn't say so. That is their perogative. Many might not buy any DVD (in fact many don't).

By the way Ben, ARE there any other magic companies you refuse to buy from because they have pirated items in their cataloges?. I've never defended any company that pirated any items either, just stated my view that differs from yours in that I think every item should be judged on its own merit, but that ethical standards should be applied to all. Chances are that you have purchased from other companies that have questionable items in stock, so you really seem to be coming across with a 'holier than thou' attitude. I doubt that's your intention but it is the way it sounds.

But anyway, differing views have been expressed and really, other DVD's shouldn't come into it. I certainly don't have a financial interest in MM, as you might have been suggesting. I'm not on a royalty or anything. I was paid to do a job and did it like any other gig, as professionally as I could. And as I've said, I'm not defending them.

I don't smoke and prefer smoke free zones, but I once did close up magic in a promotion for a cigarette company. Somebody pays me for a job, I do it, that's how I earn my living. I'd work a banquet for any political party. Are they ethical? Smile

I really don't think there's any more to say, you aired your view, I aired mine, and several people did in- between. The thread isn't really going to head anywhere else.

Paul.
Review King
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Anyone have a detailed review of Technique Master by Ichiro Araki?
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
erlandish
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I'm with Ben.

If Magic Makers and the magicians who associate with them want my money, they know what they have to do.
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wpt1031
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I have purchased this dvd along with his other DVD Card Master. So once I do get it I will be posting a full detalied review.
Paul
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Erlandish, your viewpoint is fine (although I didn't get your money before I did anything with MM either!):) Had a quick look at your blogspot, nice detailed review of the Burger set.

Wpt1031, thank you, back on topic. Look forward to it. If the DVD is good, its good, if its bad, its bad. That is all this thread should really have been about.

Paul.
martini
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Greetings Ben;
I have to agree with Paul's comments just above, if this did'nt go into a posting about magic makers, then many of us probably would not have been responding as we have, but that is where you had taken it.

I also do not have any ownership or stock in magic makers either, nor does Simon Lovell, Randy Wakeman, Carl Cloutier or others who have done projects with them. Each of us do a project, get paid, and then that is that unless we do another project down the road.

I am waiting on my set of DVD's by Ichiro Araki myself, as I have heard from some of my customers in Japan that his material is excellent. But I never comment on an item unless I have it in my hand, or have seen it personally, and then only when asked. I have stopped reviewing anything of magic makers here since I was getting e-mails claiming that my reviews were biased and that I had a financial interest in the company.

So even though I am looking forward to these DVD's, I probably will view them and keep any comments I might have about them to myself since many would feel anything I said about them would be biased.

This is one of the points that we agree to disagree on, I always look at the item itself rather than the company that produces it. Point in place, Many people absolutely hate Jeff Busby for whatever reasons they have, which is their perogative. I feel that Jeff Busby has put out some excellent material over the years, and I have bought tricks, props and books from him, not based on him personally, but on the quality of the material and who wrote it or performed it.

So I will just wait until my set arrives and sit back and enjoy what my friends in Japan have told me about.

All the Best
Marty
Ben Train
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Marty, Paul,

If I downloaded your videos then released my own video, at a fraction of a cost, teaching YOU work, would you be upset?

Of course. And, you would no doubt post on this very forum to express your outrage- rightfully so, my actions would be wrong.

And, wrong is bad, no?

But, assuming you both had good material, then the material I choose to steal would be good. And, at a cheap price would be a good buy. So it would be both bad and good at the same time, for different, though related, reasons.

Still with me?

MM is bad. It steals, rips off ideas, and doesn't credit properally. Supporting it is bad. So, a product from them means more money in their pocket- which is bad. If a dvd they produce is good, it's still supporting a crooked, unethical, company. That's bad.

If you agree that MM is bad, then supporting them is bad.

So, what are we to do if we want to see what might be a good dvd?
Here are some options.
1. Say "what the hell" and buy the dvd. This means the situation will never change. I don't see this as an acceptable solution (though you might).
2. Don't buy the dvd and miss out on the material. This might sadden some, but the bottom line is there is MORE then a lifetime's worth of material already available, and it would send a clear message to manufactures about what the market considers acceptable business practice. I like this idea.
3. Download the sucker. Why not? No money for the thiefs, and you get to see the dvd. If you like it, you could send money to the real source, like Goodwin or Bannon.

Just some thoughts.
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erlandish
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Quote:
On 2008-01-26 14:21, Paul wrote:
Erlandish, your viewpoint is fine (although I didn't get your money before I did anything with MM either!):) Had a quick look at your blogspot, nice detailed review of the Burger set.


Aw, thanks Paul. Your heart's as big as all outdoors.
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Paul
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Here we go here we go here we go. Whoops sorry, was starting a singalong to go with your tunnel vision rant. Some of my booklets have already been ripped off as downloadable pdf files. It happens as soon as you release a book these days.

Ben, you can do whatever you want, that is your choice to do so. And since your ethical position is so clear I'm sure you won't use any Marlo material (because he stole a few things here and there) won't buy books from L & L because they simply took some of the Gansen books (you can ask Martin Breese about that) or buy books from Magico (who apparently never paid for Pabular and Peter Kane was waiting for money for the Kane book until he died) or deal with dealers that stock their products. The list can go on and on, the longer you've been in magic you know where more of the skeletons are. Talk to Ben Harris about all the dealers that ripped off his Cosmosis, it will expand your list of dealers who not to do business with so that its larger than one.

Personally I don't buy any pirated items, nor did I ever stock any to my knowledge. What you do is your business. If you want to start another thread with your personal MM crusade that's up to you, I won't be there, and I'm done posting here. Hopefully the next post here will be a review of the DVD. Everyone knows your position so there's nothing else to say, but I'm sure you an find another thread to hijack before long for another MM bashing, and good luck to you.

Paul.
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