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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » Dirty magic! » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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rossmacrae
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So ... engaging in an actual discussion, and analyzing your argument, and seeing both sides, and finding cause to disagree with some of your points ... that's "attacking."

Sorry, didn't know you were just looking for unalloyed agreement.

I promise you, I agree with more of your points than you think, but I just can't check my mind at the door and join in the group cry of "ain't it awful, let's go get 'em". There's more to the issue than that, and I wish you were more pleased that some of us thought your point was worthy of serious discussion.

And, as always with serious discussion, you will find (as you did) some not-so-bright comments in among the lot. Risk you take.
Joe Marotta
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Hi Magicmatt1982, I agree with you and I don't like the sex-sells mentality but I can understand why it's in the magic world. It's there because the people doing it are not Christians. Maybe you are expecting non-Christians to act like Christians, but they can't. They are acting according to their nature. I also agree with you in that I won't purchase their wares or buy tickets to their shows. Everyone votes in one way or another, with our check books.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Matt.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2008-01-22 18:42, Magicmatt1982 wrote:

I want you all to know that when I say trash I mean sex and the crap that goes with it and not effects.
What do I think we should do ? Well I have been thinking about this and I think that only thing we can do is as christians we stand up and not buy the trash and not go to the shows that surport such things. So those are my thoughts.



Glad to see you came to the sensible conclusion.
If your eye offends thee, pluck it out. But don't go trying to pluck my eye out as well.
Vote with your feet and your pocketbook and lead through example. That's the best way to encourage change. Far better than trying to force people to your will through Blue Laws and Vice Squads.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2008-01-23 00:04, Joe Marotta wrote:

Maybe you are expecting non-Christians to act like Christians, but they can't. They are acting according to their nature.



We all act according to or nature, just some of us are more up front about it Smile

Some of the most Christian like people I know are non-theists.

Unfortunately I tend to find the opposite holds true.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Terry Owens
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Just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn't mean they are one...just like some folks may think they are a great performer, it doesn't mean they are one...the proof is in the pudding.

A good performer doesn't have to rely on "racey" tactics in order to do a great program...if someone has to perform a blue act in order to get people to come and see them, then they are either not reaching for their full potential, or they just don't have it.
Joe Marotta
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Quote:
On 2008-01-23 02:35, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-01-23 00:04, Joe Marotta wrote:

Maybe you are expecting non-Christians to act like Christians, but they can't. They are acting according to their nature.



We all act according to or nature, just some of us are more up front about it Smile

Some of the most Christian like people I know are non-theists.

Unfortunately I tend to find the opposite holds true.


Real Christians have a new nature and they DESIRE to live a holy life. It's a process (santification) that's on-going in our life. But if you find someone who claims to be a Christian, and they have no desire to stop sinning or to live a holy life for the honor of Christ, then you are probably looking at a false convert. Like you observed, false converts are found in every world-view.

What does this have to do with magic? Well, when you repent and put your trust in Christ, the true magic is receiving a new nature with new desires that want to please God. And that's no trick!
Payne
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Quote:
On 2008-01-23 08:12, Terry Owens wrote:

A good performer doesn't have to rely on "racey" tactics in order to do a great program...if someone has to perform a blue act in order to get people to come and see them, then they are either not reaching for their full potential, or they just don't have it.



I agree, If you have to "rely" entirely on blue material to get a reaction from your audience then perhaps one isn't living up to their full potential. However there are venues where blue material is completely appropriate and even expected or anticipated by the audience. Many people find Blue Humor funny and go specifically to see performers who are known for performing it. Again it is a different not a lesser form of expression. I am offended by the overly bland, play it completely safe family entertainers who make Barney look cutting edge. Does this mean said entertainer is failing to reach his full potential. No. He is simply employing a different skill set than an adult performer doing blue material.

Performing Adult material in an Adult situations can open up unexplored avenues in ones performance.
For example Lance's two person levitation at the Hacienda with its extremely overt sexual overtones was a much stronger piece visually and theatrically than the watered down "family friendly" version that currently appears in his Monte Carlo show.

Just because something offends you doesn't diminish it's artistic merit. Art by its very nature pushes the envelope and makes us question the world around us.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
David McCall
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Quote:
On 2008-01-23 11:14, Payne wrote:
Art by its very nature pushes the envelope and makes us question the world around us.


As an art major, and Christian, I don't entirely agree. Just as some here finally agreed that a comedian doesn't HAVE to work blue to be funny, art doesn't HAVE to shock or push the envelope for it to be good art. Perhaps to be recognized, but that doesn't mean it is good or bad.

Art has a common misconception that it has to shock and offend people for it to be recognized (not that this is what you were saying). Granted, you could probably make it seem more shocking than it is, and everyone reads something into a particular work, but the fact that it doesn't shock a person or push the envelope in a certain way doesn't mean it isn't good art.

A painting of a bowl of fruit probably won't shock too many people now. That doesn't mean it's not good art, or that it's not well done.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2008-01-23 15:12, Mental Dave wrote:

As an art major, and Christian, I don't entirely agree. Just as some here finally agreed that a comedian doesn't HAVE to work blue to be funny, art doesn't HAVE to shock or push the envelope for it to be good art. Perhaps to be recognized, but that doesn't mean it is good or bad.

Art has a common misconception that it has to shock and offend people for it to be recognized (not that this is what you were saying). Granted, you could probably make it seem more shocking than it is, and everyone reads something into a particular work, but the fact that it doesn't shock a person or push the envelope in a certain way doesn't mean it isn't good art.

A painting of a bowl of fruit probably won't shock too many people now. That doesn't mean it's not good art, or that it's not well done.



True, not all art has to shock or push at the edges of convention. But if no art did so then all we would be left with are those paintings of fruit you seem to enjoy.

I enjoy a good still life as much as the next guy but I also enjoy my sensibilities being challenged as well.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
David McCall
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Quote:
On 2008-01-23 16:12, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-01-23 15:12, Mental Dave wrote:

As an art major, and Christian, I don't entirely agree. Just as some here finally agreed that a comedian doesn't HAVE to work blue to be funny, art doesn't HAVE to shock or push the envelope for it to be good art. Perhaps to be recognized, but that doesn't mean it is good or bad.

Art has a common misconception that it has to shock and offend people for it to be recognized (not that this is what you were saying). Granted, you could probably make it seem more shocking than it is, and everyone reads something into a particular work, but the fact that it doesn't shock a person or push the envelope in a certain way doesn't mean it isn't good art.

A painting of a bowl of fruit probably won't shock too many people now. That doesn't mean it's not good art, or that it's not well done.



True, not all art has to shock or push at the edges of convention. But if no art did so then all we would be left with are those paintings of fruit you seem to enjoy.

I enjoy a good still life as much as the next guy but I also enjoy my sensibilities being challenged as well.


Right... but in certain ways. I did a few pieces that pushed an envelope or two, but didn't violate most sensibilities or religions for the heck of it.

One I had to sign a lot of autographs for. It got a lot more recognition than I expected it to get, and yet no one I know was offended. It made people think, or made them feel certain things, without being vulgar.

A Jackson Pollack doesn't have to be offensive to be creative. Most of Rene Magritte's (mmm! I love a good Rene Magritte on my salad! Lol) works don't offend, but they DO make you think.

You can persuade a person to think about what happened when Jesus died on the cross (and challenge their religion), or whether or not he did, without having a little person in Roman costume pretend to do a graphic sex act on the magician during the show.

Of course that's where we sort of agree: It's up to you ("you" in the collective sense) if you want to see that sort of thing.
Carrie Sue
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Once again, Payne has succeeded in turning a discussion on decency in our art into an apologetic for -- as Matt originally called it -- Dirty Magic.

I was excited when Street Magic magazine was announced, and especially when I learned that they were looking for writers. I submitted information on myself to them, hoping that I might get a bit of a job out of it.

Well, that didn't happen, but I wouldn't want to have my name associated with that disgraceful rag today. Its very masthead "SM" and the sexually suggestive covers give it a totally awful first impression, and from what I've seen the inside is no better.

I'm a firm believer that you can be entertained and educated without having to be dragged through the mud. Dirty magic should be cleaned up, and the less we have of it the better we all will be.

Carrie
www.proximityillusions.com

ASLAN IS ON THE MOVE!
rossmacrae
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So, you're surprised? It's down-and-dirty punky "street magic" - if you ventured into any other sort of "street culture" would you expect anything else?

Dislike it if it's not your style (and it's certainly not mine) but don't be surprised that it's not anything else than it has proclaimed itself to be from the very start.

If you want actual street magic that is other than the scruffy genre that seems to have grabbed the "street magic" title, look at busker magic, pitchman magic, that sort of thing - tends to be much more family-friendly.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2008-01-24 22:42, Carrie Sue wrote:

Once again, Payne has succeeded in turning a discussion on decency in our art into an apologetic for -- as Matt originally called it -- Dirty Magic.



Hey, It's a Dirty Job, but someones got to do it. Otherwise you guys would have us all watching Leave it to Beaver reruns on TV, Charleton Heston Bible Epics at the Movies and fill our modern art museums with paintings of Dogs Playing Cards. Smile
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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