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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 11040 Posts 
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Left hand clockwise right hand counterclockwise
grasshopper |
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-01-23 14:11, rutabaga wrote: The Kaufman book was published in 1985. According Kaufman's "interpretation" of Roth's version of history, "Chink-a-Chink" was created at least fifty years prior to that publication, and undoubtedly before Roth was born. So I think we are safe to say it's unlikely that Roth's (or Kaufman's) title "The Original Chinese Coin Assembly" had anything to do with creating the name "Chink-a-Chink". In other words, it's pretty hard to argue that Roth's descriptive term "Chinese" had anything to do with naming the earlier Malini effect. It's kind of a timeline thing. Furthermore, I have found nothing in the 1985 Kaufman book that could be considered remotely close to an etymological study of the origins or intentions of "Chink-a-Chink" as a title for a barehanded assembly of small objects. Just based on timeline issues and lack of definitive dissertation I'd say "Expert Coin Magic" is out as far as supportive documentation for your position is concerned. TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4853 Posts
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Oh man, I'm dizzy. Shall we get into the Judao-christian historical references for coins a-cross?
ONLY JOKING, please don't......
Conviction Prediction 2.0 is now out! Inquire for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com
Promo: https://youtu.be/PvhQbAVeQKM?si=oXOHGoT-awykN1G2 |
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rutabaga Inner circle Toronto, Canada 1327 Posts
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LOL... I also understand that "Copper/Silver" originally referenced a police bribe...
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Gary Yin Elite user Sabah, Malaysia 449 Posts
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I think I get it.
Chinka Chinka Chinka. Malini call it Chink-a-Chink. Then Roth feels it sounds chinese, and call it Chinese Coin Assembly because, it's based on Chink-a-Chink which has to do with coins which is in a Assembly formation. Thus creating the routine name Chinese Coin Assembly, and for some of those who might recognize it as Chink-a-Chink. So I think Chinese Coin Assembly is born from the Chink-a-Chink. Not the other way around. My assumption, not fact. I'm dizzy too. Might be wrong. The name Chink-a-Chink is still a mystery. |
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feher Inner circle Michigan 1421 Posts
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Is this over yet ??????????
Mean people SUCK!!!!!!!
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4853 Posts
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Yes
Maybe :)
Conviction Prediction 2.0 is now out! Inquire for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com
Promo: https://youtu.be/PvhQbAVeQKM?si=oXOHGoT-awykN1G2 |
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3233 Posts
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No!
There is always some idiot who comes along and continues topics like this! It might was well be me! 
I trust after my arguments below, nobody will find a chink in my armor! I don't know why Malini's named his routine "Chink-a-Chink," but I expect that "chink" most likely refers to the sound of coins striking each other. There is ample precedent for that meaning in magic literature. Nonetheless, it is also clear that it was used to refer to a person of Chinese descent, which, barring some historical evidence, makes it impossible to say for sure there was no intention to refer to the orient in some fashion. However, personally, I doubt that was the intent when this routine was named because of all of the early references I list below. By the way, in the early literature, even when the phrase "chink" was used to refer to a Chinese person, or to the orient, it's not completely clear that the usage was meant to be derogatory in all cases. Today, most people find the word offensive. I suspect that's at least partially because of the very successful television show, "All In The Family", which featured a strangely lovable ignorant, and bigoted, character named "Archie Bunker, who referred to Chinese people as "Chinks." That might not be the reason, it's just a theory. I avoid using the word that way, but I don't avoid it's documented meaning as a sound. The Merriam Webster dictionary gives one definition of the word chink as; "a short sharp sound." It also has the meaning referring to as a Chinese person, which is described as, "usually offensive." As an irrelevant aside, it lists other meanings, such as this one used in "Hocus Pocus Junior," in a description of the routine: To seem to swallow a long pudding made of tin. - This is the earliest reference to the word chink in a magic article that I have found. I mention it only for historical interest, and because I found it! It has no real relevance in this topic. Quote:
if you practice smiting easily upon your throat with your fist on each side, the pudding will seem to chink; as if it were lying there; then say, "Thus they eat puddings in High Germany, they fling it down their throats before their teeth can take possession of it." The word chink used to refer to a sound The earliest reference I found to the word "chink" as a sound in a magic article was in an early (the first?) translation of "The Memoirs of Robert-Houdin, translated from the French to English by Dr. R. Shelton Mackenzie. Mr. Mackenzie added an index to the book, and ended his comments with the date, Sept 26, 1859. It's pretty safe he had a good command of both French and English or he wouldn't have been hired to translate such a historic work. The relevant quote is: Quote:
Being little conversant at that period with theatrical matters, and having no reason to doubt the honesty of my eloquent "humbugger," I easily believed his fine promises. The chink of one hundred thousand francs still ringing in my ears fascinated me; and I gave way unconsciously to the same mode of reasoning the inkstand inventor had employed. Later in "Stanyons Magic", Author/Editor: Ellis Stanyon, 1912, Mr. Stanton wrote, in an article named "Original Lessons in Magic": Quote:
instead of taking it, merely chink those in the left hand against those in the right, counting 6; then ... There is no mention of China or Chinese people in that article. Also in "Stanyons Magic" in October, 1913, Quote:
similar trick is done with four coins, which, being all alike, need not, of course, be double-faced ; care, however, must be taken that they do not chink together under the paper at left hand top corner of handkerchief.-MAGIC, December, "1904 Note, the date in the article makes this an earlier reference than the previous quote from in Stanyons Magic, but not as early as the reference in the translation of Robert-Houdin's memoirs. From "THE CONJURERS' MONTHLY MAGAZINE" Vol. 02 Author/Editor: Jean Hugard, Jun, 1944, for the description of the routine "Coin Interlude": Quote:
At an opportune time make some remark about the marvelous skill some jugglers attain and relate that you have seen one who could place a coin in his left hand, another coin on its back, then toss the latter into the air and catch it in the same hand without allowing the coins to touch one another. To illustrate, take the two half dollars from your pocket, place them on the table, take one and place it in your left hand, closing your fingers on it. Turn your fist back upwards and put the other coin on it. With an upward jerk of your fist toss this coin into the air and catch it in your left hand, letting the two coins come together with loud "chink!' Lay the coins down again. There is no mention of China or Chinese people in this routine. Similarly, in the trick "Tug of War" by Jean Hugard in "Hugard's Magic Monthly Vol. 07, Author/Editor: Jean Hugard, Jun, 1949": Hugard has: Quote:
Striking the spectator's coat pockets with his wand they give out a distinct chink as of loose coins. Then he taps one of the trousers pockets and again the "chink" of money is heard. He continues the tapping all the way down to the cuff of the trousers leg and each time the "chink" of money is heard. and Quote:
With the wand tap the coins so that all can hear the resulting and Quote:
Tap one of his coat pockets and there is a distinct "chink" as of loose coins jingling. ... To produce this "chink", In "Hugard's Magic Monthly" Vol. 12, Author/Editor: Jean Hugard, Jun, 1954, routine "The Flying Coins": Quote:
... let the four coins fall into the right hand with an audible chink. Close the right hand and move it a little away. The word Chink used to refer to a Chinese person, or to Chinese magic In Walter Gibson's "The Seven Circles" Vol. 3, 1932, there is an add for a magic company named "Nixon". That advertisement contains the following comment. I have no idea what it means. Quote:
Biggest Nixon features. All $1.00 With each order you will receive a new large However, other references in that same issue clearly refer to a Chinese person. In an article named "Nixonian News Shots": (I guess the reference above must refer to a Chinese person?) Quote:
Ask me if he can do Chink magic—and how—why not, he has the advantage over us all—just see that smile every time he Dorny's a date. Wait until you see his Chink act at the convention. Okay Walter, hope you like our chop sticks. Speaking of Dorny reminds me he is now one ... ... Later in the same article: Quote:
Coins—just showed a fellow a Chinese coin, the one with the hole in the center, and also: Quote:
Harry has gone laundry mad and has added a Chink section to his act. Wait until you see the Chinese portion of his act-beautiful, and how. Plenty of eye-fulls of oriental stuff with scenery and Chinese decorations by Nixon. Harry is well booked ahead, every hair standing upon its own master. Volume 4 of "The Seven Circles", also in 1932 had two additional similar references to "chink" that I don't list here because they are so similar. In the next usage, the reviewer shows some bias, - From "THE CONJURERS' MONTHLY MAGAZINE" Vol 01", Author/Editor: Harry Houdini, Sep 15, 1906: Quote:
Okito, the Hollander, son of the original Bamberg, is back in the show business with his Chinese act. He is a very good card manipulator, but it does not look Chinee-like for a Chink to handle cards. (I wonder if "Chinee" above is a typo. I expect it is.) The irony in the next reference is that Chung Lung Soo was really an American named William Robinson, and a copycat of the real Chinese magician, "Ching Ling Soo," who had to leave London because audiences thought he was the copy. Read Jim Steinmeyer's excellent book, Hiding the Elephant for details. William Robinson died performing a bullet catch, and one reviewer for Genii Magazine, who reviewed Jim Steinmeyer's book, referred to William Robinson's ultimate fate as "divine justice"! The "Conjurers Monthly Magazine", Vol 01, Author/Editor: Harry Houdini, Sep. 15, 1906 Quote:
Chung Lung Soo besides mystifying the audiences, also manages to give away enough to eat to satisfy the most fastidious, so the advertisements exclaim! On beholding the Chink work I noted that he performs the rice and water trick with the two bowls; instead of producing water he produces hot tea, and passes it amongst the audience. He next produces a large orange tree, and from it real live oranges, and throws them into the audience, where they are grabbed and stripped out of their yellow strait jackets and eaten. From "Hugard's Magic Monthly" Vol. 04, Author/Editor: Jean Hugard, Jun, 1946, I found the following advertisement: (The Malini-Bey routine is advertised twice in that magazine, this is only the first reference). Quote:
... Allerton's Pump Room Phantasy and Bamboozled. Horowitz's Malini-Bey; Chink-a-Chink, and Egyptian Ball Mystery. Jarrow's Hanky-panky. $1 each; the complete set OF 5 for Again, in the same publication, Nov, 1963, Al Stevenson wrote, in an article named "Thoughts While Thinking" in his "The Wizards Variation" column: Quote: Think rhymes with Chink, so I came up with something for my handy dandy Chen Lee Liquid Suspension.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts
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Thank you Bill for doing the unbiased research that our newbie "instant expert" should have.
TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3632 Posts
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Wow very nice bill! thanks!
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silverking Inner circle 4573 Posts
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Bill, did you use "Ask Alexander" or ????? for your research, or do you have all of this research material in your library?
I ask because I'm considering getting "Ask Alexander" and if this is in fact what you used for this amazing bit of research, it's tipping me in that direction. Regardless of what you used though, thanks for your work on this Bill! As somebody who does the Chink-A-Chink with Whit Hayden's brass weights regularly, it's excellent information to have should anybody ask about the name. Thomas, have you ever considered making a high-end chink-a-chink set? There's really very little out there right now in terms of nice C-A-C props, and what ones there are really don't look like much of anything real, but certainly look like a magic prop. The School for Scoundrels set that are based on Dai Vernons personal set are long out of manufacture and going for over $200.00 a set these days.....and that's only if you can find a set. |
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3233 Posts
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Thomas Wayne and Joshua Barret, you're welcome.
Silverking, I have Stanyon's Magic in my library, but not the other periodicals, and I did use Ask Alexander. I could have researched some other material at home, but those references I already found make it seem pretty likely that "chink" was used to refer to sound in that routine. I am not an authority on anything magical, but I do know how to do research. What I have done is only a start. For queries regarding history, research is not complete until something absolutely conclusive is found. That often means asking lots of people and reading a lot. Of course, there might be nothing conclusive to find. Max Maven, or Jon Racherbaumer, Wesley James, or one of the other magicians who really know about magic, might know much more about this.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-01-24 13:12, silverking wrote: Actually, as I was reading the first paragraph above I was already thinking I would recommend the Vernon-style replicas; I had no idea they weren't being made anymore. But I'm too busy at the moment to even think about developing a new product. TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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rutabaga Inner circle Toronto, Canada 1327 Posts
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Although Bill's research is impressive, it seems only to suggest that the word chink has been used both as a reference to a Chinese person, and as a sound.
I don't think anyone was ever disputing that, were they? So aren't we, like, back where we started? |
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3233 Posts
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Rutabaga,
There is more than just that. "Chink" seems to have been used to refer to sound in magic literature long before it was used to refer to people of a certain race, and around the time that routine was named, the most prevalent usage referred to sound. That, and the fact that the word clearly wasn't always considered offensive, even according to the official modern American English dictionary, would seem to also be a significant piece of information.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-01-24 14:10, rutabaga wrote: I'm sure you'd like to think so. But, in fact, it seems pretty clear that the title "Chink-a-Chink" was NOT referring to anything Chinese, and was certainly not a racial slur. In an earlier thread, Chad Barnard wrote: Quote:
On 2008-01-02 08:17, Chad Barnard wrote: So I guess we're not exactly "back where we started". But what I wonder is if we're finished speculating yet... I mean, it is your turn, isn't it? While you're thinking about that, allow me to include an interesting, more current reference (since the contention is that "chink-a-chink" is improper in our "modern" times): http://www.pipermethod.com/inthemusicdrumsolo.html And I'll go ahead and copy the relevant passage here: Quote:
Swivel to face forward in Neutral Posture, bringing hands under hair in E8. Swing Shimmy Left-RightLeft. And all I can really think to add to that is... lol. TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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This is good stuff. It seems to me that the sound is implied by the phrase "chink-a-chink" but it is not at all clear that no racial references were intended. Everyone seems to discount the possibility that earlier magicians were clever enough for double entendre.
Early advertisements and/or write-ups for the actual routine might add something to the discussion. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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rutabaga Inner circle Toronto, Canada 1327 Posts
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Quote:
...it seems pretty clear that the title "Chink-a-Chink" was NOT referring to anything Chinese, and was certainly not a racial slur So, just to be REALLY clear, you're saying that the title of the effect in Roth's book "The Original Chinese Coin Assembly: Chink-A-Chink with coins, hands used as cover instead of cards", refers to sounds the coins make [except they don't], and is "NOT referring to anything Chinese". |
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3632 Posts
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..... I think in the case of roth's trick its called Chink-a-Chink simply because that's what it was always called....
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feher Inner circle Michigan 1421 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-01-24 15:14, Joshua Barrett wrote: Bingo !!!! We have a winner !!!!!!!!!!! Tim
Mean people SUCK!!!!!!!
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Posted: Jan 23, 2008 10:19 pm 
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