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DR STEVE HOSKINS Special user North Wales, UK. 831 Posts |
Anthony can you bring along a copy for me to blackpool please? I am in borneo on holiday now so cannot order in the usual way.
I am sure you will be able to slip me a copy in the ruskin at the end of the night ! |
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
Hi Dr Steve,
Sure Steve. I will be wearing my hypnotic monobrow for easy identification. Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
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S. Lea New user 83 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-02-15 08:48, bobser wrote: Do you think that Anthony really doesn't uundertand how someone could get a person to roleplay without actually asking them to? Anyone with Anthony's understanding of hypnosis would know how this would be achieved even if they didn't practice it themselves. Most hypnotherapy courses have modules on stage hypnotism and teach the roleplay method to compare and contrast with hypnotherapeutic methods. I took George's wink to be an acknowledgement that Anthony was using this claim to steer the discussion away from roleplaying - if he says he knows nothing about it then he can hardly be expected to discuss it here or have used it to achieve the effects in his book. Of course, he opens himself up to the suggestion that since he doesn't understand how someone would roleplay without being asked to then this may be how his effects work without him knowing it - the stallholder being Kluge Hans to his Von Osten (Clever Hans being Really Clever Hans in this instance since he deliberately fools his master). Having read the thread I think George has made his position, what he thinks and where he stands very clear. This isn't to say I agree with him but he certainly hasn't left any points unanswered which is more than can be said about Anthony at this stage. |
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
Hands up, I do not know how to make someone role play especially without asking them too and certainly not with regard to allowing me to steal their things. The role play method was not taught to me by my main stage hypnosis mentor and he trod the boards for thirty years. If I suspect I have an 'actor' or 'role player' I don't work with them. I was taught they have too much potential to make you look like a fool. That applies on the street and on the stage.
Can you explain how the role play method works? Not the theory, the mechanics of doing the routine above. What stage hypnosis course that you have taken taught the role play method? Referencing hypnotherapy courses is not helping. Let's face it most hypnotherapists use progressive inductions and most would struggle to tell you if their subjects are hypnotised or not. Simple reason - they do not test their work. And yes you are correct, you will not find any mention of role play in my book. Just hypnosis. Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
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George Chan New user 42 Posts |
--- skip this bit if youre not interested in hypnotherapy ---
Given the standard of hypnotherapy training available Id be surprised if many self-proclaimed 'hypnotherapists' would struggle to tell you anything about hypnosis. They don't test their work because most never put their training into practice after leaving the course. This isn't to say that hypnotherapy itself isn't tested. Clinical hypnosis has been and continues to be thoroughly tested. This research is available but many hypnotherapy training schools disregard scientific and medical research because the organisers don't bother looking for it. They can sell courses for two to three grand a pop without customers demanding it. In the same way they claim to teach a 'therapy' spending little or no time teaching psychotherapeutic basics. --- skip this bit if youre not interested in hypnotherapy --- Role play works by rewarding the subject for playing roles desired by the hypnotist. The reward in hypnotism is that the subject gets to be the star of the show. The hypnotist will also tell the audience that the ability to be hypnotised is a skill worth having and suggests that anyone who is hypnotizes is mentally superior to others. The audience, whether they be people seated in a theatre or shoppers in a market, are encouraged to show support for the hypnotised and encourage hypnotised behaviour. People who act in the way desired by the hypnotist are rewarded by having the crowd applaud their actions with a consensus that they are clever and skilled individuals. People who do not act in a way the hypnotist wants, the ones that don't roleplay (pretend they think theyre naked, or that cucumbers are spliffs) are asked to leave the stage or ignored and don't get the rewards. Induction tests are used to see people who are willing to roleplay rather than for theyre original use to help people enter hypnosis. The skill of the hypnotist is in controlling the subjects. Someone who wants to play along may have a plan of disrupting the show. In magic you don't pick someone who really wants to be picked because they may want to ruin the magic. In practice hypnotism is different because unlike magic hypnotic shows are much harder for a subject to ruin. I wont go into too much detail on here because people will start accusing me of exposure. |
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
Yup, that's the theory
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
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George Chan New user 42 Posts |
Recognise it?
Works in practice too. |
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Nongard1 Special user 664 Posts |
Exposure on a hypnosis board is an oxymoron. Unlike magic, in hypnosis, what you see is what you get. Early on in posting on this board I was accused of "exposure" which is of course crazy, since unlike a magician, everything a stage hypnotists does is seen and heard - all hypnosis is self-hypnosis so there cant really be "exposure"
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
Learn how to master the art of SpeedTrance, Clinical and Stage Hypnosis |
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-02-16 18:45, George Chan wrote: Great. Go and find yourself some am-dram students, err I mean subjects. Ant
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
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LiquidSn Elite user New York 472 Posts |
Just want to say this book is a great resource for beginners like me. As a person who has never done hypnosis, The way he describes what hypnosis is really clear to me.
Now, I am still not confident enough to tell someone to go "under", but I am gaining much needed experience and confidence doing the set pieces. Even to my friends, I can do the "Stiff Arm" set piece and to most of them, they tell me they are really trying but can't bend it. This is alone amazing enough to me. What is interesting about all of this, is that I could literally just run the script in my head and do the "Stiff Arm" to myself, and it works! But now the next step is to take it further and see if I can put someone under. Sadly, If it ever happens I would probably freak myself out and just run away while he just stands there "under". haha. Anyways, I would recommend the book to anyone. I probably have to read it 5 more times before I really venture out and put someone under. Thanks Again Mr. Jacquin! |
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Erdnase27 Inner circle 2505 Posts |
I just want to say I liked te book. lol
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bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
So, first of all, 'S Lea', looks like you might have been wrong.
Secondly, I think the oxymoron line was fantastic and probably completely true. And finally, George, when you talk (write) you remind me of every hypnotherapist (NON hypnotist) I've ever met. Why do you suspect that might be? Incidentally, I feel you're first name night actually be: Steve. Am I correct? Just call it a lucky guess.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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George Chan New user 42 Posts |
Hey Bobser I probably remind you of every hypnotherapist youve ever met because Ive been talking about hypnotherapy which is a topic hypnotherapists often talk about. My first name is actually Banachek but people kept forgetting it so I changed it to the more memorable Steve.
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silverfire9 Veteran user Rochester Hills, MI 323 Posts |
I should probably not say anything here, but ... I'm a hypnotherapist as well, and I don't put as much stock in the depth scales as George appears to. And as a side note, in his first post on the topic in this thread, he said that the concept of somnambulism went out with the depth scales, then he proceeded to define the suggestibility (depth) scales and make claims based on them. Um, if they "went out," why are you using them to base claims of who can experience hallucinations or not?
Now that's out of the way, here's my take on suggestibility scales and somnambulism. They are valuable and have a useful purpose. However, they're not the end-all, be-all that a lot of people think they are. They're administered using a standardized approach, which doesn't work for a lot of people. I don't know if they're still administered in the way I'll briefly describe, but I know they used to be. Tape recorder doing an authoritarian eye fatigue/closure induction. Talk about making it as hard to hypnotize the person as you can. Not everyone responds to an authoritarian approach, to begin with, and doing it listening to a tape with a person(s) watching you would only make it worse, imo. And then doing the whole "Your eyes are getting heavy, heavy, they will close" thing ... I was taught not to fight over eye closure. You want their eyes closed? Tell them to close their eyes. There. Done. It's my opinion, shared by a *lot* of hypnotherapists, that the depth scale does have uses, though. It gives you another tool you can use, should you choose to use it. But it's only a rough guide. And somnambulism is considered by many hypnotists to be the "working depth" of hypnosis. If your clients aren't in somnambulism, you need to get them there before doing any work with them. And these are hypnotists who are very much current and up to date on things. So the concept of somnambulism isn't quite as outdated as George originally said, and the depth scales aren't as all-important as he later said. My apologies for adding one more flame to the fire, so to speak, but I didn't see anyone else making this point yet. Now back to something a little more on topic ... I can't get Anthony's product right now, but based on what I've seen on YouTube and in his answers here, I'm sure it's full of useful and practical information and would be well worth the investment. Joshua firegoldhypnosis.com |
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George Chan New user 42 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-02-17 22:33, silverfire9 wrote: Depth scales are concerned with how deep a subject is in hypnosis hence the use of the word depth. Suggestibility scales are concerned with how subjects respond to suggestions hence the use of the word suggestibility. How deep a subject is in hypnosis has no relation in their openness to suggestion. Scoring at the higher end of suggestibility scales does not indicate how deep a subject is in hypnosis. Suggestibility scales are not a type of depth scale. Depth of hypnosis is not a modern concern in either hypnotherapy or stage hypnosis. Somnambulism is more commonly used to refer to sleepwalking. The use of the word in hypnosis died out when the notion of hypnosis being related to sleep. Incidently, I am not a hypnotherapist and do not claim to be one. I do not think there is any 'flaming' on this thread. This is a discussion forum and if hypnosis is raised, even if this one is connected to a book on sale, then shouldnt open discussion of hypnosis be welcomed? I would have thought that Anthonys book would be a good start to get discussion going. If the whole thread is about whether or not a book is worth buying then shouldnt it be in the Books, Pamphlets & Lecture Notes forum? |
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
Nice distinction between suggestibility and depth. I am still not clear from your definition of depth what it actually relates too. Without defining 'how deep' or 'depth' the definition seems meaningless. And if increased depth does not increase suggestibility what does it do?
Unfortunately for the hypnotist you cannot tell by looking at someone how suggestible they are. You have to give them a suggestion and observe the result. George, I assume you have hypnotised people? From your observations of those people do you err toward state theory of hypnosis or social theory of hypnosis? I am just trying to put your comments in perspective. Has any hypnotic phenomena one of your subjects achieved suggested to you that hypnosis is more than playing along? Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
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silverfire9 Veteran user Rochester Hills, MI 323 Posts |
You're right, the suggestibility scales are a little different from the depth scales. A suggestibility scale attempts to predict how easily people respond to suggestion. A depth scale uses suggestion to detect how "deep" they are in hypnosis. I had a slip-up in my post earlier and used "suggestibility scale" when that wasn't what I meant. That said, depth scales *are* concerned with how open a person is to suggestion.
Think about it. How do you determine how deep someone is? By giving a certain type of suggestion and seeing if it "takes." And unlike what George keeps saying, somnambulism is *not* an outdated concept or word. Ask almost any modern hypnotist, and you'll find they know what it is. Assuming they've had halfway decent training, that is. And many, many hypnotherapists consider somnambulism to be the working depth, like I mentioned before. For the reason why, look a couple paragraphs up at the depth scale comments. Somnambulism is considered by many hypnotists to be the working depth because it's the first depth at which certain types of suggestions are accepted easily. These suggestions would be the more mental suggestions, such as age regression, amnesia, hallucinations and post-hypnotic suggestion. So, far from being obsolete and outdated, the concept of somnambulism is very much current. Yeah, the literal meaning of the word doesn't fit the use, but that goes for the word "hypnosis" itself. As a linguist, I have no problem with that; meanings of words change all the time. What *has* been pretty much made obsolete is the "social compliance" or "role play" theory of hypnosis. With all the medical research regarding hypnosis and noting the changes in the brain, etc., role play has been pretty much ruled out. That doesn't stop it from being taught, mind. There are, unfortunately, lots of people out there who teach outdated information still. The following is a quote from an article by Cal Banyan, a well-known hypnotist and trainer: "This is how you can have the best outcome. Learn at least one or two hidden tests for the level of hypnosis that you want (ideally somnambulism). I am convinced that achieving amnesia through suggestion is a good test for somnambulism, at least the threshold of somnambulism. The Dave Elman Induction has a great built-in test." Note the usage of the word "somnambulism" there. Joshua PS. When I said "one more flame to the fire," I didn't mean anyone was flaming anyone. That was just the best metaphor I could come up with right then. |
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Nongard1 Special user 664 Posts |
Every hypnotherapist I know uses the word somnambulism as Joshua indicates. Well written Josh! I second the opinion! And you are also correct the the word hypnosis itself is an incorrect word. But I do think it is easier to explain in a pretalk that hypnosi looks like sleep , even though it isn't sleep - than trying to explain the whole "magnetic animal" thing... LOL
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
Learn how to master the art of SpeedTrance, Clinical and Stage Hypnosis |
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Bluebox New user 21 Posts |
"Ask almost any modern hypnotist"
outdated concept because there is a difference in definition from that of those practicing in the early 19 century. here in the United States hypnosis isn't really regulated. among the different schools there isn't a consensus upon the definition and to what responses and effects the term encompasses. somnambulism could mean a multiple of things. true, role playing in the medical community (how do you fake surgery with just hypno-anesthesia?) is pretty much obsolete. but we're talking about stage hypnosis. There's videos on youtube where the hypnotist asks for volunteers and he gets like 20 people that he doesn't decide to screen. you'll see him suggest hallucinations and the participants all acting it out. so are you saying every single one of them is a natural somnambulist? I've heard that in certain countries stage hypnosis is prohibited so the hypnotists would instead claim all they're doing is role playing to get pass the legal barrier. I wonder how many of them are actually lying. |
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Nongard1 Special user 664 Posts |
Every stage hypnotist has a group that subject of both varying degrees fo suggestability and depth. Some are in deep trance, others lighter levels and yet some may simply continue to follow directions becasue they are having fun (social compliance). This is the nature of a stage show, and why every stage show has a star or two (usually the natural somnambulists). This is also why the stage hypnotist has to be carefull which participant he picks for certain skits (like #2 amnesia for example). But it is perfectly OK to have people at every level on stage, and people usually go in/out and up/down during a show.
I understand some countries ban stage hypnosis, which is a testament to medical lobbies rather than common sense.
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
Learn how to master the art of SpeedTrance, Clinical and Stage Hypnosis |
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