The Magic Caf
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » New to magic? » » One book on performance: an alternative to Strong Magic by Ortiz? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
Hoppini, the Mediocre
View Profile
New user
Canada
41 Posts

Profile of Hoppini, the Mediocre
I agree that showmanship and performance principles are something that needs to be looked at from the get-go. After all its the point of what we do. (I am an experienced performer, just new to sleight of hand magic)

However, I don't blame the initial poster for asking if there are better alternative works for the beginner. In my estimation, there must be. We can urge the beginners to read Ortiz's text - if your motive is to find a great way to keep the riff-raff and tha casual guys out. (not that any of THAT goes on in the land of magicians. Smile )

I can only tell you that if I wasn't already a performer, and was a brand new magi learning my first coins across routine, Strong Magic might just make my eyes glaze over and have me contemplating taking up stamp collecting instead.

I reiterate, the principles are sound...I'm not indicting the work. But there's got to be a better beginner's book.
EndersGame
View Profile
Inner circle
Reviewer EndersGame
2211 Posts

Profile of EndersGame
How about The Stein and Day Handbook of Magic by Marvin Kaye?

In the introduction, Kaye states:
  • "The primary purpose of this book is to show the unpolished performer how to become a magical entertainer. Far too many magicians are ignorant of the basic principles of showmanship, and the majority of magic texts, dealing primarily with the revelation of "secrets", are of little help to them in this respect ... The Stein and Day Handbook of Magic puts the fundamentals of showmanship within the grasp of any reader ... This book aims to teach the same skills to any magician who cares enough about his craft to learn its most important aspect: showmanship."

Some of the Review Comments on the cover include these:
  • "The book is not just a collection of tricks but a comprehensive course in magical entertainment, weaving together technical expertise and the psychology of mystification." -Rocky Mountain News
  • "All the essential finger-flinging is there, but more important, he tells us how to `sell' the product - entertainment. Magic is more than apparatus and secrets. It is a subtle art, and Marvin Kaye has imparted his knowledge of this art with care and devotion." -The Amazing Randi
  • "Showmanship is the whole bag of tricks, and Marvin Kaye's book is primarily about that and how to develop it." -New York Times Book Review

Maybe those more familiar with Marvin Kaye's The Stein and Day Handbook of Magic can comment on its suitability, how useful it is, or how it might compare with Strong Magic?
afunman
View Profile
New user
4 Posts

Profile of afunman
Quote:
On 2008-02-21 12:17, Topov wrote:
Many amateurs who do close-up magic for family and friends probably already have several books that teach them how to do the mechanics of tricks (card tricks, impromptu, etc). But how about trying to improve on the performance of the tricks that they already know? What single (non-trick) book about presentation should they read? The obvious choice seems to be Strong Magic by Darwin Ortiz, but unfortunately it seems to be out of print (is it going to be reprinted?). What would be the best alternative? Assume that we're speaking about amateurs who are not that experienced, and who mostly do close-up rather than stage work.


I think we should first know what a "beginner" really means.

Does one who just want to begin to learn some magic tricks count?

Or does one who have some experience in performing trick count?

Or like me, with only one year of learning card tricks, count? I still feel that I am a rookie in the field of performing magic, though I already have some experience.

Glad to see the passion you fellow magician gave to this thread. Still, I think we should give "beginner" a very clear definition first. The only thing I know is, if one has never learned a single trick and is in the very beginning phase of learning magic, he cannot go wrong with the "magic for dummies" book. It contains both technic and perform side of magic.

Happy Learning.

Afunman
andre combrinck
View Profile
Special user
South Africa
953 Posts

Profile of andre combrinck
The Books of Wonder--Brilliant bloody Brilliant.

AJ
EndersGame
View Profile
Inner circle
Reviewer EndersGame
2211 Posts

Profile of EndersGame
I just discovered that Strong Magic is back in stock at Penguin as well. I'm glad that it is more widely available at present than I thought - I've been able to order a copy and look forward to reading it.

I've been reading Marvin Kaye's The Stein and Day Handbook of Magic lately, but have been slightly disappointed - even though the introduction claims that the book is about showmanship rather than methods, the chapters explaining particular sleights and effects don't really give much guidance on presenting those effects. There's some good material in other chapters, but it isn't proving to be quite as good or consistent as the introduction had led me to expect. I'd still welcome hearing some comments from others on this book.

On the subject of showmanship, Hugard & Braue have a chapter on Misdirection and Presentation in Expert Card Technique that's worth reading. Nothing near as good as the book by Ortiz (given how replete it is with examples), but there are some valuable tips that can be gleaned from that section.
magicalaurie
View Profile
Inner circle
Ontario, Canada
2987 Posts

Profile of magicalaurie
Quote:
On 2008-02-21 15:31, Darwin Ortiz wrote:
I just thought I would let everyone know that Strong Magic is available directly from me, autographed upon request. If anyone is interested in ordering, send me a PM.

Sincerely,
Darwin Ortiz


A great offer. Just got my copy from Mr. Ortiz yesterday. Thankyou, Darwin!
Cyar
View Profile
Regular user
132 Posts

Profile of Cyar
Does anyone have any feedback on any of the following
- "Abracadabra: SECRET METHODS MAGICIANS AND OTHERS USE TO DECEIVE THEIR AUDIENCE" by Nathaniel Schiffman
- "Magic and Showmanship: A Handbook for Conjurers" by Hennings Nelms,
- "Magic in Theory: An Introduction to the Theoretical and Psychological Elements of Conjuring" by Peter Lamont and Richard Wiseman or
- "Close-Up Magic for the Night Club Magician" by Jean Hugard
- "Maximum Entertainment: Director's Notes for Magicians and Mentalists" Publisher: Ken Weber Productions


I've been reading and re-reading Wesley James' "Why Should I Care?" which have some terrific insights into performing.
I told those f***s down at the league office a thousand times that I don't roll on Shabbos!
erlandish
View Profile
Inner circle
Vancouver, Canada
1254 Posts

Profile of erlandish
I have to reject the premise offered here. If you're passionate about presentation and showmanship, there is no single text, nor is there a single alternative to an established text. If you want to limit your study to a single text, you might as well not bother picking any of them up.
The Jester Extraordinaire : bderland.com
Ye Olde Magick Blogge : erlandish.blogspot.com
Zoran
View Profile
New user
75 Posts

Profile of Zoran
This may seem strange to say, but the book "Inner Game of Tennis" will help you immensely as a person and as a performer.
“When you can be your own best audience and when your applause is the best applause you know of, you’re in good shape.”LRH
EndersGame
View Profile
Inner circle
Reviewer EndersGame
2211 Posts

Profile of EndersGame
Quote:
On 2008-03-12 18:51, erlandish wrote:
I have to reject the premise offered here. If you're passionate about presentation and showmanship, there is no single text, nor is there a single alternative to an established text. If you want to limit your study to a single text, you might as well not bother picking any of them up.

I look forward to hearing the reasons behind this assertion. Surely an amateur will gain more benefits from one text than from none at all, especially if it is a particularly outstanding book?

Of course the benefits reaped will be greater if one surveys a variety of texts, but as the initial post makes clear, we're speaking about amateurs here.
erlandish
View Profile
Inner circle
Vancouver, Canada
1254 Posts

Profile of erlandish
Quote:
On 2008-03-12 20:58, Topov wrote:
I look forward to hearing the reasons behind this assertion. Surely an amateur will gain more benefits from one text than from none at all, especially if it is a particularly outstanding book?


The perfect book of showmanship for any performer is ultimately going to be the one they come up with themselves. In the developmental stage, focus upon a singular book or viewpoint is only going to serve to force upon you the biases inherent in that performer's point of view.

Darwin Ortiz's Strong Magic, for instance, is largely dismissive of magic performance that incorporates a challenge into the situation. Tommy Wonder's Books of Wonder have a large dissertation against the Too Perfect Theory, except that unfortunately it's obvious from a study of the development of the theory that Wonder missed part of the point of the theory in the first place. Henning Nelms's Magic and Showmanship tries to illustrate the theories in the form of routines that are impractical for a lot of people to try to test on their own. Even a cursory analysis of Fitzkee, Weber, Tamariz, Ascanio, etc. will unearth limitations.

I love all three of those works, but it's only in comparative study that you can get a better grasp of the theories and their place in magic as a whole, whether or not there exist valid counter-theories, and furthermore determine which theories can be assimilated into your own work. Comparative study necessitates more than one book. Devote yourself to one book and one book only, and the most you'll ever be is a drone, a robotic embodiment of the theories of the writer. Sure, you might rise to a level higher than somebody who studies no theory, but if your initial goal is to get a better grasp of performance and showmanship proper, you're cheating yourself.
The Jester Extraordinaire : bderland.com
Ye Olde Magick Blogge : erlandish.blogspot.com
Cyar
View Profile
Regular user
132 Posts

Profile of Cyar
Quote:
On 2008-03-12 18:51, erlandish wrote:
I have to reject the premise offered here. If you're passionate about presentation and showmanship, there is no single text, nor is there a single alternative to an established text. If you want to limit your study to a single text, you might as well not bother picking any of them up.

Perhaps there's a misunderstanding on the definition of Performance being the word covers a wide number of separate, yet not exclusive, areas. There is the experiential element of being in front of people (dealing with stage fright, hecklers, hostile crowds, etc.) which naturally can only be learned by the doing not be any reading, much like learning to swing a bat. My interest has been more along the awareness or mental aspect such as are you doing magic "to" the audience or doing it "for" the audience? Two different frames of mind which a person may not be aware of despite their years of performing. Are you demonstrating skill or are you entertaining? etc.
I told those f***s down at the league office a thousand times that I don't roll on Shabbos!
erlandish
View Profile
Inner circle
Vancouver, Canada
1254 Posts

Profile of erlandish
Cyar, I see what you're saying, and I believe that's where a lot of performance theory books lean. Again, I don't think that's one thing that any singular book can help you with. Nelms and Ortiz cover many different bases probably better than any of the others out there -- in terms of delineating different ways of being entertaining -- but even they have their shortfalls, in that the only way they're guaranteed to help is in you're cut from the same mold they are.

Magic theory hasn't quite progressed to the level of other art forms' theory quite yet. A lot of good work is still coming out, and the best theory is sort of like an ongoing discussion that can span generations... one of the reasons Strong Magic is such a good book is that it serves as a response to previous texts (Fitzkee and Nelms, for the most part), and as such gives a lot more depth, due to the digestion and regurgitation of previous ideas for a more modern performer and audience. It stands to reason that there are books yet to be written that'll serve to add to the discussion that right now is arguably dominated by Ortiz.

At this point, studying magic theory is a bit like saying you want to learn how to cook well, and you have to choose whether or not to study under an Italian chef, a French chef, or a Japanese chef. They all might be excellent chefs with excellent ideas, but they're also specialists whose ideas are going to be slightly prejudiced. Choosing only one is going to limit your development. You might get some great insights from the Japanese chef that you can't get anyone else, but how's your spaghetti going to turn out?
The Jester Extraordinaire : bderland.com
Ye Olde Magick Blogge : erlandish.blogspot.com
EndersGame
View Profile
Inner circle
Reviewer EndersGame
2211 Posts

Profile of EndersGame
I need to start my learning about presentation somewhere, so I've decided to opt for the chef born and raised in New York City, and currently residing in Washington DC. I can always expand my cooking skills by learning from others later. But even if I don't, I'm sure that the magical meals I'll be serving will improve as a result of what I learn from my new mentor. Interesting analogy by the way - thanks for your contribution to the discussion!
erlandish
View Profile
Inner circle
Vancouver, Canada
1254 Posts

Profile of erlandish
I hope what I said didn't come across as discouraging at all. Frankly I love the idea of more magicians getting interested in performance theory. I just think that if they're only going to limit it to one book, they'll be cheating themselves.
The Jester Extraordinaire : bderland.com
Ye Olde Magick Blogge : erlandish.blogspot.com
Cyar
View Profile
Regular user
132 Posts

Profile of Cyar
[quote]On 2008-03-12 21:20, erlandish wrote:
Quote:
The perfect book of showmanship for any performer is ultimately going to be the one they come up with themselves.

That's a good one. And like any good magic trick, I'm stealing it, lol.

Quote:
In the developmental stage, focus upon a singular book or viewpoint is only going to serve to force upon you the biases inherent in that performer's point of view.

That makes a lot of sense. Not limiting yourself to one viewpoint and thereby missing other nuances.


Quote:
it's only in comparative study that you can get a better grasp of the theories and their place in magic as a whole, whether or not there exist valid counter-theories, and furthermore determine which theories can be assimilated into your own work. Comparative study necessitates more than one book. Devote yourself to one book and one book only, and the most you'll ever be is a drone, a robotic embodiment of the theories of the writer. Sure, you might rise to a level higher than somebody who studies no theory, but if your initial goal is to get a better grasp of performance and showmanship proper, you're cheating yourself.

Excellent. I've certainly learned something which I'm always grateful for. Thank you for your wonderful insights!
I told those f***s down at the league office a thousand times that I don't roll on Shabbos!
Cyar
View Profile
Regular user
132 Posts

Profile of Cyar
Quote:
On 2008-03-13 12:55, erlandish wrote:
I hope what I said didn't come across as discouraging at all. Frankly I love the idea of more magicians getting interested in performance theory. I just think that if they're only going to limit it to one book, they'll be cheating themselves.

Yes, agreed! I mentioned reading Wesley James "Why Should I Care?" which provided me with some excellent insights and was curious to know what was the opinion of these other works (and ideally save $$$ by avoiding the less helpful) as they profess to be about performance.

- "Abracadabra: SECRET METHODS MAGICIANS AND OTHERS USE TO DECEIVE THEIR AUDIENCE" by Nathaniel Schiffman
- "Magic and Showmanship: A Handbook for Conjurers" by Hennings Nelms,
- "Magic in Theory: An Introduction to the Theoretical and Psychological Elements of Conjuring" by Peter Lamont and Richard Wiseman or
- "Close-Up Magic for the Night Club Magician" by Jean Hugard
- "Maximum Entertainment: Director's Notes for Magicians and Mentalists" Publisher: Ken Weber Productions
I told those f***s down at the league office a thousand times that I don't roll on Shabbos!
erlandish
View Profile
Inner circle
Vancouver, Canada
1254 Posts

Profile of erlandish
Can't speak for Schiffman or Lamont/Wiseman. Hugard and Braue's theories on performance in RRTCM and Expert Card Technique are pretty good, so I imagine Hugard's book might be worth reading.

Maximum Entertainment is an excellent book for somebody who's already got a show and wants to give it focus. It's a great editing tool for getting rid of almost all the unnecessary (or potentially sabotaging) junk. I'm not convinced it will help as much in the creative aspect of things, though. Strong Magic simply has more ideas in that department, and Tommy Wonder's Books of Wonder have more practical plans for getting it from idea to form.

Nelms is another excellent book which has a lot of relevant things to say, especially when it comes to the idea of how to effectively claim powers in your performance. Many of the illusions given to illustrate his theories are impractical for beginning performers to work through, however.
The Jester Extraordinaire : bderland.com
Ye Olde Magick Blogge : erlandish.blogspot.com
Cyar
View Profile
Regular user
132 Posts

Profile of Cyar
Quote:
On 2008-03-13 12:25, erlandish wrote:

Magic theory hasn't quite progressed to the level of other art forms' theory quite yet. A lot of good work is still coming out,

It looks like it's coming out faster than I was aware of. Here's a couple of other items I stumbled across addressing the performance issue.

Transformations (Creating Magic Out Of Tricks) by Larry Hass
In Transformations: Creating Magic Out of Tricks, Lawrence Hass uncovers some of the higher secrets for creating strong, entertaining performances of magic.
- Drawing on over fifteen years of experience as a performer and as an award-winning teacher of college courses on magic performance, Dr. Hass shows that being an excellent magician does not reside in knowing lots of “tricks,” but rather in the thoughtful application of psychological and theatrical principles that transform our best tricks into experiences of magic.

Beyond Deception by Tobias Beckwith
In Beyond Deception, Tobias Beckwith offers ideas and techniques which performers at all levels can use to create truly original and personalized magic. Drawing on long experience directing and observing world class performers of all kinds, Beckwith has drawn together not only fascinating theories about how a performer creates, but a series of sure-fire techniques and exercises guaranteed to jumpstart each magician's creative process.

Scripting Magic by Pete McCabe
Pete McCabe and 26 other guys show you the art of scripting magic. Includes 45 scripts, 13 essays, 7 interviews, and 1 flowchart to make you a better magician.

Maximum Entertainment by Ken Weber
There are no tricks in this book, but it’s loaded with secrets!
The most important secrets- techniques for mastering your audience!

Along with...
Exploring Magical Presentations (DVD) by Eugene Burger
An intimate opportunity to learn from one of magic’s greatest teachers, this DVD will help you think about your performing style, and grow as a magical presenter.
We all know plenty of tricks, but how can we turn them into memorable magic? In this DVD session, Eugene Burger explores that topic, and provides specific examples—including fully developed routines that you can adapt for your own performances.

Close-UP Performances by Eugene Burger
Eugene Burger's "Series of Evocative Essays" that he hopes will, "Challenge ou, cause you to stop and reflect upon your own magic, inspire you to practice and rehearse, and, in the process, improve your own close-up magic performances."
I told those f***s down at the league office a thousand times that I don't roll on Shabbos!
truesoldier
View Profile
Inner circle
1191 Posts

Profile of truesoldier
Hi Topov

Having read through the posts I couldn't see the following books mentioned (Unless I didn't see them) that you may want to consider as they are all very good and have a lot of substance.

Absolute Magic by Derren Brown (Although this is hard to find, try as it is great)

Designing Miricles by Darwin Ortiz

The Five Points of Magic by Jaun Tamariz

The Books of Wonder by Tommy Wonder.

I could name a few others but I think that these are a fantastic starting point. Also these are books that you can go back to time and time again, this also means that as you get more experienced you will be able to learn more from them.

All The Best
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » New to magic? » » One book on performance: an alternative to Strong Magic by Ortiz? (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.07 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL