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jclark
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Hmmm. This thread struck me as interesting. So here are my thoughts.

You're talking about Jerry; he lives in CO and is often referred to as the "Flourishman". He's also the author of The Encyclopedia of Card Flourishes, a rather large compendium.

De'vo on the other hand is not Jerry, though people often make that assumption.
I met De'vo in Ulmen, Germany in late Feb 2007. I flew there after doing the Peter Eggink interview in Amsterdam just outside Schipol Airport. Went straight to Frankfurt and then drove for about 2 hours to the town of Ulmen, just outside of Cochem, which is fantastic city with great wine just off the Moselle. Saw the castle, met members of the Ulmen Four, and others who happen to be involved in what they call "XCM" or "Extreme Card Manipulation".

Have the passport stamp, photos, and my crew to prove it. But I agreed to not publish photos of De'vo, who has since become a friend. He also happens to be in the Guinness Book of World Records for the Coin Roll; sort of makes him a real person. I saw the certificate up on the wall at the pub he did it in. You can look it up for yourself.

XCM is not magic or juggling, but what many have come to accept as an independent art form of its own under the umbrella of manipulation itself. I personally don't do manipulations of this nature as I've neither the time, patience, dedication, or quite honestly the discipline to truly develop the techniques to perform manipulation like that. But I respect it none-the-less.

The kid in the video is actually executing some examples of what would be advanced manipulation; he is not a magician and makes no claims of such. And few of my magician friends have the dexterity, or the other attributes I mentioned above, to do what this kid is doing. He's not trying to get a job, he's not working for tips, he's simply performing manipulations to enter a contest.

In my estimation, he's not done anything wrong, he's not hurt anyone, and he at least has the intestinal fortitude to try. I see no reason to lambast, tear him down, or put my chest up in the air and claim what he is doing is a bad thing.

As to the paid performances, well, De'vo has had his hands and techniques featured in significant TV productions for MAJOR companies with considerable pay provided for his efforts; way more than I have EVER been given for a single performance ever... and I've made some pretty dang good money. He has performed for people in positions most magicians I know will never have the chance to meet simply because magicians are a dime a dozen in comparison and they rarely offer something out of the ordinary that separates them for the next magician out there. De'vo has lead the charge in manipulations like this including things like D'Ring, which is truly astounding and something to behold in person.

The Buck Twins, while not XCM-ers per se, were featured doing advanced manipulations like this in Smokin Aces--not magic tricks. They were attacked significantly by "magicians" when they first started out, many of whom have now come to accept them as the talented young men they are.

I also met a guy in Japan when I was working with Cyril who does nothing but card manipulation; no tricks, nadda. And he is quite respected there.

Chris Kenner, a man most of you would respect, developed manipulations with cards that many now use as standard. Same with Jeff McBride. I was over at his house some weeks back before he left for a tour in Asia and he expressed to me how much he respects De'vo for what he has done. Daryl expressed similar feelings and appeared on one of De'vo's DVDs called Xtreme Beginners.

I know of a young man in Asia who won an XCM competition with HandLordz and because of it was featured on countless TV programs (not to do magic mind you, but manipulation) and was recently offered a book deal.

There are many examples now of people using JUST manipulations to entertain and making WAY more money than you do with a set of sponge balls and a thumb tip. That's a fact. Sure, he is young and needs improvement, but that's where guys like you can come into play and help him grow.

Really, any skill is what you make of it. How you market yourself plays a big roll. And, of course, what the public wants to see impacts things too.

Learning and maturing over time is a process we ALL go through (or at least a dang sure hope so). But most importantly, sometimes just believing in yourself when others say you're crud without offering leadership is the way you have to move forward.

Imagine what that would be like... a world where the majority of magicians out there actually supported the upcoming generation by providing positive leadership instead of negative criticism at the on set as FIRST course, rather than the opposite. But who cares anyway, he's not a magician, just a 16 year old kid trying to have some fun doing something none of us here in this thread really do or understand ourselves anyway. He has no impact on us and prob doesn't even know any of us even exist. Heck, the only reason I know some of you is because you are customers or I see you rolling around the forums now and then. Heck, I don't even know if I truly exist! LOL

Best,
JC
Magnus Eisengrim
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Bravo JC!

Let's give the kid a break and show some respect to a fellow artist.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Larry Davidson
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I agree that he probably doesn't know that any of us exist and he probably also doesn't visit this site, so how could anything someone says on here hurt him?

My comment was not about him competing in a contest, it was about someone like him who might approach my table at a restaurant and did what he was doing in the WEB clip--showing off with no presentation. My reaction would have been the same if a juggler (which is what manipulation for the sake of manipulation is), ventriloquist, whatever, did the same thing at my table.
kammagic
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I have seen many XCM artists and most are all about speed. But they go so fast you really can't appreciate what they are doing. I'm impressed by anyone who is good at what they do. This young boy is very good and he took his time and explained everything which I found helpful. I was interested all the way through and I appreciate his talent. He appears to be very new to performing in a restaurant setting. I think with time he could be quite the little showman. He certainly had the confidence. This performance wasn't stellar but he definitely has great potential.

I would tell him to not give up. He has a real talent and only time and experience will make it better. Bravo.

, Jonathan
SoCalPro
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I agree with the above posts (for the most part). I still believe that this type of entertainment while strolling is a bad idea. If this guy had just put this in front of a cam and not at a restaurant in a strolling environment, I would defiantly compliment him on a job well done. Just like James, I don't have the patients or the desire to learn what this kid does, so I am not putting him down for that. My problem lies within the environment that he is entertaining in.
MAKMagic
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I personally find some advanced flourishing worthy of much respect. It takes a lot to learn it. I do some flourishes mixed into my routines to add an extra touch of grace and class.

My issue- and auto-bad attitude torwards the XCM rulesz magicians and their little red ballz suk y0! crowd is just that. STFU - practice your art. If you don't like magic COOL! But don't run around thinking your better than the guy who performs magic instead of flourishing. I found the amazing things produced by the Handlordz crowd just that...amazing but the BS - y0 my military XCM connections will wish you never discovered a keyboard little cult following to be so big a put off I've had a negative attitude torward it since.

I respect flourishing and ANYONE that can get that big dollar with their Craft...that includes everyone mentioned above - big De'Vo included.

I don't apply this negative connotation to the entire XCM crowd...but the little cult of punks out there who run their mouths with all their mad skizillz need to grow up a tad. Respect is earned. Those whom disrespect out the gate have a much taller ladder to gain any...skills or no.
.:Michael Kelley
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MagicSanta
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A lot of it is cool....but 45 minutes of anything at a tableside is too much!
TheAmbitiousCard
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Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with what he's doing and he is certainly skillful. He is not giving "an entertaining performance". Period. I'm sure one day he'll be great if he works on entertaining as hard as he works on the manipulation.

The original poster specifically asked our opinions about this kind of performance at a restaurant setting. And, as recorded on YouTube, it wouldn't be good.

We are being respectful and giving him a break. Several have commented on his skills being good.
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Josh Chaikin
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Given what we know, which is little to nothing, we're making awfully big assumptions. The video says it was for a contest, and it said that it was "round 9" the "live performance." Who's to say he wasn't out with his family for dinner, and filmed there? Seems to me that's the most likely explanation.

Then again, I could be making assumptions and drawing conclusions too.
kammagic
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Quote:
On 2008-02-24 20:23, Josh Chaikin wrote:
Given what we know, which is little to nothing, we're making awfully big assumptions. The video says it was for a contest, and it said that it was "round 9" the "live performance." Who's to say he wasn't out with his family for dinner, and filmed there? Seems to me that's the most likely explanation.

Then again, I could be making assumptions and drawing conclusions too.


Yes that is what I thought was going on. He just filmed this one performance live as a submission to the contest.
pepka
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I hope they're not judging him on personality. I got about halfway through the video and had to kill it. One of the worst videos I've seen on YouTube. And there is a lot of crap on YouTube. Larry was right, this is not magic, it's masturbation. I use a few flourishy thing like this in my act, but a little can really go a long way. 45 minutes? Does this guy not know that you NEVER perform when there is food on the table? I could take about 3 minutes of that and I'd have to ask him to leave. Or better yet, I'd be like one of the annoying spectators we've all dealt with and say "Here, let me show you something."
Dannydoyle
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I hope I can get this out without the usual suspects just dragging this down because it is me saying it.

First off I found it the only magician ever working where kids were running around the room and didn't give a hoot LOL.

As for the "performace" was I to believe that this was some set up sort of contest, and the "live performance" was part of this? I mean he was working at a fast food place basically, not where most would imagine a restaurant worker to be. I don't think the kid claims to be a restaurant worker per se, just that this was part of some contest. If this was answered I appologise. But that makes me cut the kid some slack in that case.

Is he a great "performer"? Obviously not. Is he trying to be? Well from what I can see no so I don't really hold that against him. He likes the moves, for himself. I am not sure he cares if anyone else does. He will find out soon enough on his own that people don't watch that for long. Again I cut him some slack. It seems like some sort of new breed of "move monkey" has evolved in the art.

As for "Extreme Card Manipulation", I find the term laughable. Why does everyone under the age of 20 (plus Criss Angel) over use the term EXTREME as some sort of new marketing ploy? What exactly was so "extreme" or even new in what he did? I have more problems with the goofy terms than I do with the kid LOL.

Would it work in a restaurant? Please no need to even worry about it. The kid in this viceo does not even seem as if he wants to work them, so I cut him a lot of slack.

Now those prone to do so may just flame me for whatever reason they find. Wheather they agree or not, just flame away.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kammagic
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I think all that is going on here is this young guy entered a contest where you submit videos of yourself doing Extreme Card Manipulations. In this phase of the contest he needed to film himself doing it in front of a live audience. He was probably eating here with his family and gave some guy a camera to film him so he could enter it into the contest. All harmless fun. The best I could do at his age was back palm a card and a french drop. I think the kid is pretty impressive and could definitely have a future in magic or some kind of entertaining. I started riding a unicycle and now I'm making a living doing card tricks. Who would of thought.

This kid has great confidence which is one of the main things that stops most career entertainers and he has great hand eye coordination and dexterity.I think he will have a great future where ever his talents take him.
Dannydoyle
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Nobody says he HAS to do card tricks. If he does not want too, then no biggie. He may very well be happy doing just this. Which is great also.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kammagic
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This is the closest I come to Extreme Card Manipulation and its probably only because of the music I use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPFjYSo2IOg
jclark
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Danny, GREAT to see you man. I really NEVER come around anymore, which sort of sucks given that I have some wonderful friends at this place. But hey, got to work right? But you might find it interesting that R. Paul Wilson once made fun of De'vo (or so I am told) about using the term "Extreme" and then recently, well, he and L&L just put out a four DVD set using the same word! And don't get me wrong, I love most of Paul's stuff and get along with him just fine. But goes to show you that it isn't just the 20 year olds doing it <giggles>. Heck for me, extreme these days is just getting out of the office or away from the studio. Best to all, and to all a good night. JC
state
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All I can say is WOW on the mechanics. Imagine if this kid focused all his energy on Magic. I'm sure there's not a single sleight he couldn't do.
karbonkid
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"Card tricks are not entertaining."

My favorite line of the whole entire thread. I think that you should insert "Frank Starsini's" into that beginning of that sentence.

I do like how everyone attacks the kid, then proceeds to roll back once the facts are more closely examined. It's quite obvious that the kid doesn't work in a resturant, and had you read, but that would need attention, but simply read the title card, you'd know the video's purpose.
Larry Davidson
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Karbonkid (what's your real name by the way?),

No rolling back here, nor has there been rolling back on the part of some others "once the facts are more closely examined" as you put it.

Why have I and some others "attacked" (your word, not mine) this kid? Maybe it has something to do with the title of this thread and the purpose of this section of the Café. The title of this thread is "XCM in a restaurant" and the purpose of this section of the Café is "General discussion on working restaurants and bars, as well as doing strolling magic."

For the most part, there have been two types of discussions in this thread. The first type, of which I've been a part, relates to the title of this thread and the purpose of this section. The second type concerns his technical dexterity, and nobody has said anything negative about that.

Had this thread been posted in the section entitled "Pasteboard frolics," the purpose of which is, "Do you take card flourishes seriously? Then this is the forum for you!" my guess is that the focus of the comments made would have been different.

The attack on Frank Starsini or anyone else without focusing on the specific comments they made is nothing more than an ad hominem attack.

I recently read a telling quote of Socrates', "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." That quote is in the signature line of your profile.

Larry Davidson
Christopher Lyle
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Ok...so two signs of the coin here...

All the XCM/DEVO stuff "is" impressive. I look at it like juggling. However...like juggling, after a while of watching, it becomes tiresome. I'll give the kid props for being able to do it, but I too would have stopped him after about 30 seconds and asked him to either show me a trick or move on.

I don't know...the XCM stuff just doesn't really do much for me as it doesn't really hold any life to it in our craft. A flourish here and there...yeah!!!! But a whole act of flourishes.....? Hmmmm...I don't think so...
In Mystery,


Christopher Lyle
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