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Dannydoyle
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Larry is right. Absolutly right.

It is not an attack to say that this is boring as can be and I would rather watch paint dry than to see this at a restaurant. It is simply true.

I looked a bit past it but that does not make Larry or anyone who expressed this opinion wrong at all. The kid is a poor "performer" but a fantastic "move monkey".

Like I said I think we have found a whole new breed of move monkey. But not one that is suited to entertain people at a restaurant. I don't know why Larry is getting so much heat. (although Larry I gotta say it is nice for ONCE that it is not me! LOL)
Danny Doyle
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Larry Davidson
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Danny,

Like you, I don't avoid posting an opinion just because it might not be popular or because someone might not understand it. If everyone always agreed with everyone else, magic wouldn't progress much and life would be boring. Anyway, what's not to like about heat when it's 40 friggin degrees outside? Smile

Larry
karbonkid
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Dear Larry,

I think you aren't reading the same post I'm reading. I come here quite frequently to read the nuggets of wisdom. But my take on the video was that he just happened to be in a resturant and performing, probably told the people about said competition, and then they agreed to let him perform. You know why I think that? Because the OPENING of the video said it was a performance for a competition! Everyone here is critiquing him for having some sort of 'gig' or peformance personality, etc. I said that it's quite obvious that the kid doesn't work in a resturant, and had you read that, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now, but, it's funny that everyone chimes in on the 'what if', 'this will never work', and 'if he does...blah blah blah'. I've put some quotes from this thread so you can see what I'm referencing. In a nutshell, tell the kid to stop masterbating, tune him out, and put on a red nose, are simply but a few and everyone is just bashing the kid for no reason. But, again, I'll recap them for you in case you forgot:

"This guy is performing XCM as a restaurant magician...He get's some reactions, but I myself don't like the idea."

-- Miikka


"More like juggling than magic. Didn't the little child with the drink seem interested? Maybe if the "entertainer" put on a red nose?"

-- Stanyon

"If someone approached me at a restaurant and did that, I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

-- Larry Davidson (Yourself)

"First of all, I don't even know what "XCM" is but judging by his performance, I don't care to know. This type of entertainment is not appropriate for any restaurant."

-- SoCalPro

"This is the downfall of nearly all magicians when they start out and most magicians long afterwards.
Card tricks are not entertaining."

-- Frank Starsini


As to Frank...the whole card tricks are not entertaining is just laughable. It's making a broad stroke judgement about a whole set of magic that is one of the fundemental building blocks of our artform. I'm not claiming to know everything, but, that I do know. I'd like to see Frank say that to any one of the people that peform well with cards, like a Bill Malone, John Bannon, or a David Williamson.

As for my name, that's the most laughable thing. What does it matter? Is it so you can assess my comments by adding a name to them? If you could, would it make that much of a difference how you took them? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't, so I don't bother.

As for the quote, maybe you and Frank Starsini should read it and take it to heart...as well as everyone else before making large assumptions about someone's performance. To recap why that is an issue, see paragraph 1, sentence 2. I do applaud you for reading it though...and I'm glad you liked it.
TheAmbitiousCard
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Quote:
On 2008-02-25 07:35, karbonkid wrote:
"Card tricks are not entertaining."

My favorite line of the whole entire thread. I think that you should insert "Frank Starsini's" into that beginning of that sentence.

I do like how everyone attacks the kid, then proceeds to roll back once the facts are more closely examined. It's quite obvious that the kid doesn't work in a resturant, and had you read, but that would need attention, but simply read the title card, you'd know the video's purpose.


I knew someone would miss the entire point of my post. Turns out it was you.
Well done!
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karbonkid
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I figured the point you were trying to make was repeated in upwards of ten or so times.

"If what I repeated several times offends you I'm sorry but you're probably a boring magician."

Am I still missing something?
TheAmbitiousCard
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Yes, you're missing something.

I think Bill Malone, John Bannon, or a David Williamson would all agree that card tricks are not entertaining. It's not the tricks. It's the person that is entertaining. It doesn't matter what Bill Malone does, it will be entertaining. Why? Because Bill is entertaining.

The tricks themselves are not entertaining.

The kid in the video above has simply not achieved that part of what he's doing yet.

And most beginning magicians are enamored with the tricks themselves which is why their performances are not entertaining. Once they figure out that there is a completely different side to performing magic, then they work on that part of it and succeed. Or they stick with thinking the tricks are "the thing" and they fail.

That's all.

And I perform card magic all the time at my paid gigs. But only tricks that I've made entertaining.
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karbonkid
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That, what you just stated, I completely agree with. However, in the rise of XCM (of which I do not thinks fits me in the slightest), they are all about magic for themselves as a group. Considering that some of the leaders of said XCM only show their hands and the juggling, it's kind of strange that a competition would require performance, but, apparently it did.

I take card magic very very seriously. It disappoints me that people, especially in the magic community, think so lowly of it because it is such an impactful and full force prop requiring nothing more than knowledge to make normal objects become borderline, or seemingly, supernatural.

It's the same wave of disdain people have for mentalism, which, not unlike card magic, requires another level of performance to really make it impactful.

So, my only concern with people and them critiquing this kid is that his performance is not intended to be a 'performance' other than it being for a somewhat live audience. Since the intention of the kid is one thing, and people have taken it out of context and analyzed it as another, it's just really poor on our part as a community dedicated to magicians and magic.
TheAmbitiousCard
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The original post asked about this type of performance at a restaurant. Which I think most of us agree would not go over very well. I think the critiques were accurate.

BUT...

You're probably correct that it was not intended to be a performance. In that respect, we've taken it out of context in terms of what the kid was doing and it was a bit harsh. Not so good.
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Dannydoyle
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I don't happen to like this new breed of move monkey. LOL.

Frank makes such a valid point I hate to see it lost. It is not "magic" that entertains, but the magic.

"It's the singer not the song, that makes the music move along"----- Roger Daltry of The Who.
Danny Doyle
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kammagic
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There are pessimists and optimists here. I choose to be the optimist. I think the boy in the video did a fine job for the context of what he was doing. Which was filming himself live for the contest. This young boy did not give his permission to have his video critiqued and analyzed with the notion that XCM be performed in a restaurant. That was not his objective at all.

If there was a mistake made I think it was by the original poster who included this video as a demonstration of XCM in a restaurant. Which it is clearly not.

We need to ask the question without this video as a guide. Can XCM be done in a restaurant? I think it could be. You would just have to figure out a way to make it entertaining or interesting to an audience. I'm sure the first guy who thought of doing card tricks in a restaurant or balloon animals was told the same thing. "Why would people want to watch you do that?" Then someone discovered an entertaining way to present it and now its a career for many.

Tom Noddy has been doing his bubble act for 30 years!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np4n5PPIa38&feature=related

, Jonathan
Larry Davidson
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Karbonkid,

Which specific quote do you believe I haven't taken to heart?

I've read all the postings in this thread, I don't need my memory refreshed, and I stand by all of my comments including, "If someone approached me at a restaurant and did that, I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

For whatever reason, when a thread is posted in the wrong section, you object to comments, such as mine, that are consistent with the title of the thread and the purpose of the particular section in which that thread is posted. Note that I didn't say that the kid was performing at a restaurant gig, I said if someone approached me in a restaurant and did this, etc. I haven't taken the WEB clip out of the context of the purpose of this thread and this area of the Café.

Consistent with the purpose of my postings and some postings made by others, kammagic asks a good question, "Can XCM be done in a restaurant?" My answer to that question is probably, as long as it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation instead of solely to show off (I have the same opinion about magic). Likewise, traditional juggling could probably be done in a restaurant, again assuming that it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation. The reason that I said probably instead of definitely is that I'd imagine some patrons might not be comfortable having someone do extreme manipulation of objects, whether they be cards or traditional juggling props, very close to the table, for fear that the performer might drop those objects on the food or the patrons themselves. For that reason, I'd think that at a minimum, a safe distance between the performer and the patrons would be necessary.

Larry
Dannydoyle
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Jonathan, your actually on to a point.

It was kind of what I was getting at actually. I don't think asking the question if this stuff will work in a restaurant is really the right question.

Could "someone" make it work? Probably. Again, it does not matter what is being done half as much as who is doing it really. So the premise that it is not the magic but the magician bakcs up this position quite well.

I also said earlier, I doubt this kid even wants to do that. He seems quite happy entertaining himsself. Which is fine. The original poster did kind of put the kid out of context, and that is not fair really.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TheAmbitiousCard
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Quote:
On 2008-02-25 13:05, kammagic wrote:Can XCM be done in a restaurant? I think it could be. You would just have to figure out a way to make it entertaining or interesting to an audience.

Change the "or" to "and" and you've got it exactly correct. Smile
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kammagic
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Quote:
On 2008-02-25 13:25, Larry Davidson wrote:
Karbonkid,

Which specific quote do you believe I haven't taken to heart?

I've read all the postings in this thread, I don't need my memory refreshed, and I stand by all of my comments including, "If someone approached me at a restaurant and did that, I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

For whatever reason, when a thread is posted in the wrong section, you object to comments, such as mine, that are consistent with the title of the thread and the purpose of the particular section in which that thread is posted. Note that I didn't say that the kid was performing at a restaurant gig, I said if someone approached me in a restaurant and did this, etc. I haven't taken the WEB clip out of the context of the purpose of this thread and this area of the Café.

Consistent with the purpose of my postings and some postings made by others, kammagic asks a good question, "Can XCM be done in a restaurant?" My answer to that question is probably, as long as it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation instead of solely to show off (I have the same opinion about magic). Likewise, traditional juggling could probably be done in a restaurant, again assuming that it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation. The reason that I said probably instead of definitely is that I'd imagine some patrons might not be comfortable having someone do extreme manipulation of objects, whether they be cards or traditional juggling props, very close to the table, for fear that the performer might drop those objects on the food or the patrons themselves. For that reason, I'd think that at a minimum, a safe distance between the performer and the patrons would be necessary.

Larry


Larry,

"I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

This quote is very unprofessional. In reality if you said something like that to me you would be asked by management to apologize and if you refused you would be asked to leave and if you refused to leave you would be *politely* escorted out by our 8 bouncers.

,Jonathan
jclark
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Here's the guy I mentioned before. He's a professional in real life: educated, family man, involved in his community, et cetra. He's a grown man, not a neophyte and does XCM for fun; he won the 2006 comp with Handlordz. End result, he's been featured on variety shows, et cetra because there are segments of the population (in most countries) that do enjoy watching this particular display of art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IbBm4suXho

Do I think the best venue for XCM is an eatery? Well, can't really say. Prob not. Besides, there are plenty of magicians who do that anyway. But I think any performer with skill and a personality can easily pull ofs sharpening a chainsaw or playing a kazoo if he/she understands how to connect with the audience, which is something magicians need to know too. I've met plenty who have the personality of a door knob (but they think they're God's gift to magic).

I did feel as if there were a number of ad hominem attacks, which prompted me to post in the first place. And most recently, Larry you used that particular fallacy as a point of contention, which is sort of funny when you accuse Karbonkid of it only to do the same thing a sentence later using a quote from Socrates. LOL.

BTW, fallacies of argumentation just happen to be a topic I studied pretty seriously in undergrad and then in law school, so I'm more than happy to pick any of the posts apart where needed, but I don't think it is needed at this juncture or would serve any positive purpose. So please excuse that somewhat boastful digression, and allow me to make a point. And that is...

While I have no interest in slinging it out with anyone here as it won't get any of us anywhere, it isn't hard for someone to apply just a little logic and intellect when they read some of the quick posts made here in this thread; if you do, you may just see that the tone and latent points are a bit harsh, negative, boastful, and, well, perhaps even arrogant. If the shoe fits, wear it or learn from it and take it off. If not, then ignore it. Either way, it is your call. For me, this isn't an attack, just an observation and, well, one man's perception of the thread.

Fact is, I applaud anyone who performs at any venue, paid or not, perfect or not. Yes, some do make my skin crawl (as noted above) but I'm more likely to take the guy aside and share something with him that I hope will help him grow as a performer with, "Hey, forgive me, but I'd like to share something with you as both a spectator and performer that you may be able to use to increase your success here at the Red Robbin..." or whatever. THEN put the butter knife in his back, IF, and ONLY IF, I really understand what the F I'm talking about... LOL.

Just because you happen to work at Denny's as the House Magician or happen to be on a TV show, doesn't make you any more cool or necessarily a better person or performer than the next guy, so share you view with tact and in a positive way; it's the right thing to do in all occasions, even if the person sucks, and even if you think you are the best on the planet. Humility and respect goes a long way in life and, in my estimation, is one of the main reasons Cyril is SO DANG successful.

For me, as Danny and I once discussed, it often boils down to this: are you doing what makes you happy without hurting anyone else? If so, bravo. All the better if you can manage to make a high 6-figure living doing it, pay your bills, feed your family, keep a roof over heads, and get to take the occasional jont to Europe for a vacation.

I know one thing for sure, as much as like to socialize with people, I have a job to do. And funny enough, the people I respect, admire, and want to emulate the most in life are out working and doing what they love, not here on the Café pontificating like I am right now.

Sooooo that said, I'm going to quit acting like I'm important and get back to work. Have to fly to LA for a TV show meeting in the morning... ahhh, now that feels good <giggles/evil laugh>.

Take care guys, I wish you all the best!

James
sleightofand
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I woudn't personally do xcm in a restaurant in fact hardly at all. I was learning it but after showing a few people a bit of xcm they wasn't bothered so a don't do it anymore. I'll just stick with the magic I know is best. When we get a chance to show someone a few tricks, it should be the most impressive magic that you do so it leaves a stamp on them. What would you prefer to do. Do something impressive like read there mind, or bore them with how great your skills are with a pack of cards by "juggling" them?
Larry Davidson
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Quote:
On 2008-02-25 14:24, kammagic wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-02-25 13:25, Larry Davidson wrote:
Karbonkid,

Which specific quote do you believe I haven't taken to heart?

I've read all the postings in this thread, I don't need my memory refreshed, and I stand by all of my comments including, "If someone approached me at a restaurant and did that, I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

For whatever reason, when a thread is posted in the wrong section, you object to comments, such as mine, that are consistent with the title of the thread and the purpose of the particular section in which that thread is posted. Note that I didn't say that the kid was performing at a restaurant gig, I said if someone approached me in a restaurant and did this, etc. I haven't taken the WEB clip out of the context of the purpose of this thread and this area of the Café.

Consistent with the purpose of my postings and some postings made by others, kammagic asks a good question, "Can XCM be done in a restaurant?" My answer to that question is probably, as long as it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation instead of solely to show off (I have the same opinion about magic). Likewise, traditional juggling could probably be done in a restaurant, again assuming that it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation. The reason that I said probably instead of definitely is that I'd imagine some patrons might not be comfortable having someone do extreme manipulation of objects, whether they be cards or traditional juggling props, very close to the table, for fear that the performer might drop those objects on the food or the patrons themselves. For that reason, I'd think that at a minimum, a safe distance between the performer and the patrons would be necessary.

Larry


Larry,

"I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

This quote is very unprofessional. In reality if you said something like that to me you would be asked by management to apologize and if you refused you would be asked to leave and if you refused to leave you would be *politely* escorted out by our 8 bouncers.

,Jonathan


Jonathan,

With all due respect, I don't need advice on being a professional.

Did you know what I meant when I said that I'd "politely" tell him that? Let me explain, not because I have to, but so that you realize that maybe jumping to conclusions isn't always the best thing to do.

I would not use the words "mastur**** in public," I would convey that message in a polite way, meaning that I would tell him (probably by pulling him to the side) that he was very tehcnially adept, but that he should focus as much time working on entertaining people, and I'd explain why. I'd do this for his benefit, not for mine. No need to sick those big scary bouncers on me.

Larry
MAKMagic
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Quote:
On 2008-02-25 14:24, kammagic wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-02-25 13:25, Larry Davidson wrote:
Karbonkid,

Which specific quote do you believe I haven't taken to heart?

I've read all the postings in this thread, I don't need my memory refreshed, and I stand by all of my comments including, "If someone approached me at a restaurant and did that, I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

For whatever reason, when a thread is posted in the wrong section, you object to comments, such as mine, that are consistent with the title of the thread and the purpose of the particular section in which that thread is posted. Note that I didn't say that the kid was performing at a restaurant gig, I said if someone approached me in a restaurant and did this, etc. I haven't taken the WEB clip out of the context of the purpose of this thread and this area of the Café.

Consistent with the purpose of my postings and some postings made by others, kammagic asks a good question, "Can XCM be done in a restaurant?" My answer to that question is probably, as long as it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation instead of solely to show off (I have the same opinion about magic). Likewise, traditional juggling could probably be done in a restaurant, again assuming that it's accompanied by an entertaining presentation. The reason that I said probably instead of definitely is that I'd imagine some patrons might not be comfortable having someone do extreme manipulation of objects, whether they be cards or traditional juggling props, very close to the table, for fear that the performer might drop those objects on the food or the patrons themselves. For that reason, I'd think that at a minimum, a safe distance between the performer and the patrons would be necessary.

Larry


Larry,

"I'd probably suffer two minutes of it before I told him, in a polite way, that he shouldn't mastur**** in public."

This quote is very unprofessional. In reality if you said something like that to me you would be asked by management to apologize and if you refused you would be asked to leave and if you refused to leave you would be *politely* escorted out by our 8 bouncers.

,Jonathan


Proffesional or no....as the customer I highly doubt the management would ask someone to apologize to the help and I'd bet a months pay they wouldn't have me escorted out on refusal. In this particular case, the management would surely agree that the customer is an *** and leave it at that.
.:Michael Kelley
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Larry Davidson
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Quote:
On 2008-02-25 14:26, jclark wrote:
“...I did feel as if there were a number of ad hominem attacks, which prompted me to post in the first place. And most recently, Larry you used that particular fallacy as a point of contention, which is sort of funny when you accuse Karbonkid of it only to do the same thing a sentence later using a quote from Socrates. LOL...”


The reason that I included that quote is that it’s in his own profile, which I found ironic. No, I do not agree that any of my comments constituted an ad hominem attack, because I answered his argument instead of attacking his character. He engaged in an ad hominem attack when he said that Frank Starsini’s card tricks are not entertaining, an immature reply.

Quote:
On 2008-02-25 14:26, jclark wrote:

“...I'm more likely to take the guy aside and share something with him that I hope will help him grow as a performer....”


Read my last posting clarifying what I’d likely do.

Quote:
On 2008-02-25 14:26, jclark wrote:

“...THEN put the butter knife in his back, IF, and ONLY IF, I really understand what the F I'm talking about...LOL.”


Hmm, what kind of attack was that?

Quote:
On 2008-02-25 14:26, jclark wrote:

“...I studied pretty seriously in undergrad and then in law school, so I'm more than happy to pick any of the posts apart where needed, but I don't think it is needed at this juncture or would serve any positive purpose. So please excuse that somewhat boastful digression...I'm going to quit acting like I'm important and get back to work. Have to fly to LA for a TV show meeting in the morning...ahhh, now that feels good.”


Who would ever reach the conclusion, using “logic and intellect,” that you think you’re important?

This thread has taken a seriously silly turn.
Dannydoyle
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James after his boastfulness LOL has a sort of point! If he is hurting nobody bravo for this kid.

As for the rest of it, Jonathan do you TRY to make people upset with you. If not then let me ask this question. ok for a second pretend you WERE trying to tick off Larry. How would your actions be any different? I mean why say that to him?

The very idea that any fictitious number of bouncers would see anyone out because they didn't enjoy the entertainment is silly. I KNOW you work places man why would you say this? I KNOW YOU KNOW BETTER.

In Key Largo we had a piano player. People would say he needed to learn new songs, he sucked and such. Guess what Jonathan, HE was let go! The customers were not seen out.

On what restaurant management theory do you claim people would be thrown out if they didn't like some boring kid after 2 minutes and told him to scram, with ANY language they see fit? Do you really think THAT much of yourself?

Are you telling me a customer has never been rude to you? For that is all we are talking about here, rude behavior. Which by the way Larry clarified his statement so it was not even that, but lets say it was. You are trying to tell us that the management would throw out a customer with force, JUST for rude words? Oh lord are you battling the flu still? You can't be serious.

Like I said I KNOW YOU ARE A WORKER, you can't believe this stuff! Please tell me there is a clarification in our future. I was agreeing with you about this kid if you noticed. But man you seem to ask people to slag you here and for no reason.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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