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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
Hi Kriskraze,
Sorry you feel that way. Actually, I have nothing to prove - so I won't. If you feel that way, don't use them. If you feel cards have no place in mentalism - don't use them. If you feel gaffed wallets have no place in mentalism - don't use them. If you feel gaffed booktests have no place in mentalism don't use them. If you feel earpieces and cerebros have no place in mentalism - don't use them. Just because Dunninger, Annemann, Berglas, Orville Meyers, Derren Brown, Paolo C and various others use them - you are correct that doesn't prove anythimg. (Oh, I used the term classics as Annemann and gang are the classics IMHO - but depends how you define classics). However, in my limited experience in the area, I have used confederates to create all sorts of amazing effects. Your mileage may vary. Oh by the way, entertaining the audience is probably 99% of the art. Not sure of your definition of art - but go to the entertainment thread maybe and have some fun. Stooging is about theatre, acting, and drama, - which as far as I know has always been considered art. Anyway, I'll stick with it. Have a great day!
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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kriskraze Special user 620 Posts |
Quote:
I started the thread and started to ramble to defend the use of stooges done WELL as opposed to poorly Nothing to prove eh? Seems you just can't back up your ramble with any logic. Although the dictionary definition of stooge is wider, in terms of mentalism I consider a stooge is different than a confederate. Many great things are possible with confederates, particularly routines requiring some sort of code or cuing. This type of work I have no problem with. If you were only referring to this type of stooging then I'm very sorry to have confused your terminology and we can celebrate that on this rare occasion we agree. Stooging where an effect is 'faked' to impress the rest of the audience is weak. Camera tricks are weak too. Do you contest this? The reason for my view is that if stooging is acceptable, nothing is impossible. You can create the most amazing effects - which although may be full of "theatre, acting and drama" - consist of no mentalism. |
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
Yep, I contest it but don't need to prove it. Also, are you stating mentalism isn't mostly, theatre, acting and drama?
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
I think that Spektor is right. The use of stooges is just a tool, like a nwriter, a clipboard, DReality or anythings else. There are performers who will use any of those things badly, and there are others that will use them wisely and create a sensation.
I think stooges or instant stooges should be used sparingly and with a great deal of thought about the possible consequences. Have you every seen Paul Daniels perform The E. Chairs routine? If you had, you could never say that using a stooge to fake an effect has to be weak. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Though I don't use one, I have no problem with others using them...the "art" is what you create from the deception afterall...
I've asked to be banned
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Chris K Inner circle 2544 Posts |
Quote:
Stooging where an effect is 'faked' to impress the rest of the audience is weak. All effects are "faked" to some extent. Complaining about a particular methodology is a personal preference. While it does not shock me that kriskraze presents his opinion as fact and tries (poorly) to refute the logic of others, I'll just end by saying I agree 100% with Dr. S. L |
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kriskraze Special user 620 Posts |
Quote:
Yep, I contest it but don't need to prove it. I'll remember to invite you to the next discussion Quote:
Also, are you stating mentalism isn't mostly, theatre, acting and drama? You are being pedantic. Of course that's not what I'm claiming. But similarly I'm not claiming that mentalism is mostly human beings walking around doing stuff and saying stuff. [quote]The use of stooges is just a tool, like a nwriter, a clipboard, DReality or anythings else. There are performers who will use any of those things badly, and there are others that will use them wisely and create a sensation. [/quote[ and Quote:
All effects are "faked" or "real" to the same extent. Complaining about a particular methodology is a personal preference. I accept that it is a tool to achieve an effect. I consider it a tool in the same league as camera trickery in televised magic. I don't think that either are respectable tools to use in the art of mentalism. I've not seen the Paul Daniels routine, but allow me to clarify 'weak'. I mean artistically weak, the impact of the effect and the perception by the audience may be very strong. All effects are not real and faked to the same extent. In a stooged routine the outcome is faked. In a regular routine the way to the outcome is faked. You can see me read someone's mind with a NW, or you can see me do the same without a NW and a stooge participant. The end result is very similar for the audience. Which has the higher artistry? Would you feel ripped off if you purchased an effect with fantastic performance conditions: no nw, no pw, no kitchen, no sink. You open the book to find a routine that suggests just using a stooge? If not, let me know.. I've got some great new routines... |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Ah but were not talking about selling effects are we? we're talking about performing our work to the (now very popular word since a certain someone used it) the laity...
I've asked to be banned
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kriskraze Special user 620 Posts |
That was only one of my points, but I don't see why 'selling' should make any difference. After all, it's being claimed that stooging is just another tool and after all, most people buy work because they perform.
Which do you think has the higher artistry? Why do you choose not to use stooging? |
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
Which one would have artistry?
The Mona Lisa or the Scream? You are comparing apples to oranges. If it makes you feel better, I won't contest that you believe you are the greater artist for not using stooges. YAY. As for filling ripped off about learning a stooge is involved in a method - not me. Depends on the the things that go along with it. You do realize that using a stooge requires a lot of planning and skill to pull for correctly so that no one even suspects a stooge is in play? Do you have for example, the Mind and Magic of David Berglas? That book should help one appreciate stoogecraft. The recent "freezing" of people thanks to facebook was already done by him ages ago pre-internet. Pedantic? Moi? Can you define that word for me... I am just looking at what you are typing here and asking you to explain further. I would have thought pedantic pertains more to someone being dogmatic and sure of themselves and letting everyone else know that... me... as said before, I can't prove anything here - so it works for me. Go off and have fun not using stooges. What is bugging you? Don't worry if I don't agree with you - you go and do your NW. (I personally like PW better... oh oh). "I don't know much about art... but I know what I like!!" And "What? Me worry?"
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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Arnon Inner circle 1320 Posts |
Leaving the subject of stooging for a moment, and focusing on the prospect of an episodic TV show on mentalism primarily directed at entertaining the viewers, I noticed that the only TV shows mentioned, that featured more than one mentalist, was one episode of "Grand Illusions" on The Discovery Channel mentioned by entity, and possibly a show or two in Japan, although it's not clear from RileyG's post whether the mentalists appeared together or each had their own shows.
Here are the points I want to make: 1) Almost all TV shows have centered around one mentalist; 2) The ones that featured more than one mentalist were one-shot deals (not a weekly series of episodes); and 3) Those shows that featured more than one mentalist were more like documentaries than pure entertainment programs. Conclusion: Mentalists have even larger egos than magicians, and can hardly tolerate sharing the limelight. Agree, or disagree agreeably - Arnon |
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Chris K Inner circle 2544 Posts |
First, I mistyped "to the same" and changed it to "some" when I initially wrote the post. I am impressed, I corrected it within 30 seconds or so, so, for now, we will just go with my post as it is posted in the forum.
Where your argument breaks down is with your definition of "artistry". Upon further review it also breaks down in your use of the phrase "tools". You are free to categorize tools to yourself, but all it is is an opinion, one that seems to be in the vast minority. I finally have to ask, even though I probably won't believe the answer but... do you actually perform, for money? Your prose has the air of somebody who doesn't do a lot in the real world. For example, your little example at the end could be substituted with "deck switch", which many rookies feel the same as they do stooges. However, to real workers (myself, I make money at it, but it is not my primary job, however, again, I do PAID shows) your idea of artistry is less than worthless. L |
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kriskraze Special user 620 Posts |
If you're not here to discuss - why are you here?
You seem to be only interested in personal attacks. |
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Arnon Inner circle 1320 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-02-26 14:56, Lemniscate wrote: Quote:
On 2008-02-26 14:57, kriskraze wrote: Case in point that proves my conclusion - it's all about ego. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Why dodge a direct question?
I don't use them because they don't suit where and when I perform, I'm strictly a close up/after dinner kinda guy...i don't work the stage... people pay to see you perform, for their entertainment, if they get hit between the eyes with something that uses a stooge - good...they leave happy and full of wonder... and a "discussion" is where two or more people genuinely exchange views and allow each other their own personal ones, whilst exchaning views - no "i'm right and you're wrong"... orange juice anyone?
I've asked to be banned
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Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18012 Posts |
I'll have some Pirate Punch
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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Arnon Inner circle 1320 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-02-26 15:03, abraxus wrote: "Absolut"ely. |
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TamTheMentalist New user 65 Posts |
Probably there is only one mentalist per special is because, there's not really a need for more than 1 per show. To the laymen you're pitching this idea to, as far as their concerned the only thing you can do is read minds or predict the future, or PK. Which to them, doesn't leave a lot of room for variety.
T.V. probably isn't the best medium for mentalism, because, part of the interest and thrill at being at a mentalist's show is the chance of being choosen. With TV, that possibility is eliminated unless you do one of those self working type ones for the mass audience (Like Max Maven used to do for World's Greatest Magic), which a mentalist could very well fit in to his or her routine. |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
In my opinion, part of the appeal of Mentalism is that it is unique from other kinds of entertainment.
If there are lots of people doing it, it ceases to become special. To have many people in one program doing it (apart perhaps from a documentary type of situation where you search the world to examine the subject) seems to me to detract from its unique nature. In a Magic special, if you had 6 dove magicians performing in the same show, even if they did different productions, vanishes, changes, etc., it would be counter productive, so in shows where several magicians perform, they use variety -- a close-up card guy, a dove worker, an illusionist, a stage manipulation act, etc. Unfortunately, Mentalists, whether it's a valid perception or not, are seen to have similar acts: we read minds, make predictions, etc. This view was somewhat validated on Phenomenon, when so many performed variations of the same effects. Re: Stooges/Instant stooges - A wise performer will examine an effect and determine whether or not the use of a stooge/instant stooge is warranted for the effect achieved and the occasion for which it is used. That determination will be different for different people. I don't think that you can equate a camera trick with the discrete use of stooges/instant stooges. People are suspicious of magic or mentalism done on television before we begin. The assume television tricks might be used, and so it's poor judgment, in my opinion, to give them ammunition to prove their suspicions. People are relatively sophisticated when it comes to understanding how camera trickery might be used. On the other hand, peoples' understanding of how stooges might be used in creative and hidden ways in mentalism is not widespread. Added to that, there are ways to make the use of a stooge "bullet-proof", so that either it won't be discovered or if it is, it won't matter within the context of the routine. It takes some thought, but it can be done. That doesn't mean the indiscriminate use of stooges would be a good thing. It just means that if the effect is worth doing, and it can't be achieved any other way, an experienced performer can make a judgment call as to whether it's a tool that he wants to use at that particular time and place. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Chris K Inner circle 2544 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-02-26 14:57, kriskraze wrote: I am here to discuss but my phrasing obviously wasn't clear, so I'll try again. When you are doing paid shows, the idea of artistry, especially somebody else's is secondary to the impact on the audience. In that regard, yours, mine, Santa Claus', idea of artistry is worthless. If a stooge happens to be a way in which the audience is entertained the most, then, for me and the paid workers I know, it represents exactly what you should use. Put another way, when I perform, my artistry is about entertainment. Now, on the opposite end, uses of stooges for people who do NOT perform, seems like cheating or a cheap way to do something. I understand this, I felt that way. However, therein lies the difference between a worker and an effect collector. As a worker, you use what works, what makes you valuable and worth the money, the underlying secrets are just that, underlying. Trust me, kriskraze, you would know if it was a personal attack. I will also assume that you are NOT a paid performer since you avoided the question/discussion. Arnon, Do you even know what "prove" means? I swear, some people. Or are you going to try to impress me by saying you were "almost" a genius in math or whatever other spiel you have? I mean, of ALL people to talk about ego, need I remind you of that obnoxious (and completely embarassing for you) "me me me" PM you sent me? I know it is an impossible request, but why not actually give some ideas or a point of view instead of trying to bash everybody from the outside (your usual MO)? L |
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