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Dan Bernier
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What's more insulting? A guy who doesn't believe in God making jokes about Jesus Christ, or a Christian who professes to believe in God, and continues to live a sinful life?

(Wow, that just spoke to me in a very heavy way. I have some praying to do.)
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FriarShaun
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Jesus did work with coins. I like the one where He has the exact tax amount pulled from the mouth of a fish randomly caught by a fishing method that doesn't work.

I also like the one where He uses a coin to counter bad theology. (Resisting obeying the law based on religion).

Imagine what He could do with an okito box.
Lady D
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Are you mocking our Lord by calling him nothing but a magician? Don't you have any decency? I feel very sorry for you. Do you really think this is funny?
Dan Bernier
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Owwwch, pretty harsh words without getting your facts. Perhaps you could of PMed him with your concerns and comments before lashing out on our brother in the Lord like that.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
KurtK
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Heheh wow as soon as I saw this thread I thought to myself "Im not touching that with a 10 foot stick"
Hearttau
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Lady D,

I think the good friar was just trying to lighten the mood of the thread a bit. He said that Jesus worked with coins, not did magic with coins. Jesus did use coins to make His points now and again. If you read the thread again, you'll see that no one is saying Jesus was a magician.
Lentidigitator: “A magic artist who performs slow motion magic”... Rene Lavand

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bobser
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I think the questions I'd be asking myself is this: What do I gain and what do I lose by this title.
I'm not sure if I'd gain anything in this case but it looks like I'd have several challenges with it.
Maybe it's a youth thing. Youth likes to shock. But why not have a picture of your arse on the front of the DVD cover instead? That's be quite cool?
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Mike Melito
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I talked to John Born before he left Kansas City for New York. I asked him where he came up with the name "Matrix God's Way" and his response didn't get as deep as this conversation. He's a regular poster in the Café and open to questions.

This whole discussion re-iterates my extreme dislike of going to sunday services.
Jeff J.
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Gospel Dan, I hadn't thought about it until I saw your posts with several verses quoted, especially the post with a lot of fornication references. Have you posted Revelation 22:15: The unclean are shut out, and so are all who practise magic, all fornicators, all murderers, and those who worship idols, and every one who loves falsehood and tells lies.?

If so, what was your take on comparing magicians with murderers and such? I've heard people say that such and such doesn't really apply now, but I was brought up to believe that you either take the ENTIRE word of the Bible as it was written or none of it. You don't get to pick and choose what suits you. I've always wanted to get an opinion on that, but most people just go into that excuse about "interpreting it the wrong way", rather than deal with it head on. Maybe you can help?
Dan Bernier
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Hi Jeff.

Let's see if I can answer your questions from a matter of my own opinion. First question, "What's my take on comparing magicians with murderers and such?".

2Ch 33:6

(ASV) He also made his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom; and he practised augury, and used enchantments, and practised sorcery, and dealt with them that had familiar spirits, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger.

(ESV) And he burned his sons as an offering in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and used fortune-telling and omens and sorcery, and dealt with mediums and with wizards. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger.

(ISV)

(KJV) And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

(KJV+) And he1931 caused (853) his children1121 to pass5674 through the fire784 in the valley1516 of the son1121 of Hinnom:2011 also he observed times,6049 and used enchantments,5172 and used witchcraft,3784 and dealt with6213 a familiar spirit,178 and with wizards:3049 he wrought6213 much7235 evil7451 in the sight5869 of the LORD,3068 to provoke him to anger.3707

(LITV) And he made his sons to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and did magic and divined, and used sorcery, and used mediums and conjurers; he multiplied the doing of the evil in the eyes of Jehovah, to provoke Him to anger.

(MKJV) And he caused his sons to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom. He also practiced secret arts, and used fortune-telling, and used witchcraft, and dealt with mediums, and with soothsayers. He did much evil in the sight of Jehovah in order to provoke Him to anger.

I thought I would post my example scripture here in different Bible translations. There are other scriptures in the Bible that refer to witchcraft, but the biblical definition remains the same. I have been looking for the word, "magic" in the Bible, even different translations, but haven't found the word magic. I may have missed it, but my search has come up with nothing.

It's easy to see why God forbids the practice of witchcraft, but there is a huge difference between performing magic tricks and practicing witchcraft and sorcery. So, in answer to the question, I don't compare magicians with murderers and such. Some can still argue that even performing magic tricks is wrong because it uses deceit. But, the deceit isn't a secret. Those who enjoy watching magic know that they are being deceived, and the deceit that we use isn't to provoke God's anger, it's used to entertain. I've been asked how I can feel okay about performing magic as a christian because I have to lie and fool people. My answer is that I don't lie to anyone. Just because I don't tell them how the trick is done doesn't mean I'm lying, and when people watch me perform they are wanting and willing to be fooled in a fun and entertaining way.

To answer your other question, I take the Bible literal. God is not the author of confusion, and most personal interpretations only cause confusion, or theological debates that only raises more questions and man made answers. The Bible, nor Jesus ever tells us that we must interpretate what He says, or what scripture says. I must also make it clear that I don't worship the Bible. In otherwords, I don't make it the source of my faith. The source of my faith is God. So when someone wants to try and debunk the Bible to me to try and prove God doesn't exist, they miss the fact that I have a real personal relationship with God which proves more to me than words in a book. When someone asks me how do I really know God exists I don't need to quote scripture to them, I tell them because I have experienced God's love first hand and have a personal relationship with Him.

When Jesus healed someone He would usually tell them, "Go, and sin no more." Most of us believe that Jesus wasn't being literal because we have come to except it's impossible to not sin, but why would Jesus tell people to go and sin no more if He knew it was impossible? I've pondered this question many times but I always end up with the same conclusion. When I was a young boy and did something bad, my father would punish me and tell me to not do it again. I never questioned my father to see if he was being literal or not, I just made my darnest to not do it again.(Not out of scared fear, but out of love, respect and admoration for my father.)

Mat 18:3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

When Jesus told the rich man that he had to sell everything he owned, give it to the poor and follow Him, the rich man was sad as we walked away. Jesus didn't go running back to him saying, "Hey, I didn't mean that literal, nor do I really expect you to sell everything you own and give it to the poor, just come and follow me."

I will end this now cause it's gotten long and so much can be said about this topic. I would like to say that too many people are coming to Christ for all the wrong reasons, and are being told lies right in church by those who are preaching and teaching. This is the kind of magic I believe that should be forbidden!

Okay, now that I've opened a can-o-worms...later!(lol):)
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Jeff J.
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Thank you for answering Dan. Whether I agree or disagree with any opinion, I am always appreciative when someone like you takes the time to actually discuss their viewpoint with me in a polite, respectful manner rather than assume I am trying to be disrespectful, or perhaps even mocking. I'll be the first to admit that sometimes I come off as harsh, but usually when I'm treated as though I am less of a person because I may not believe in the same thing someone else may. How boring would life be if we all believed the same thing and played by the same "book"?

I must say I am still confused on the issue of magic as it relates to the Bible. I was brought up Catholic and actually learned to read at a higher level after attending Sunday School. It encouraged me to study other cultures and languages, including wanting to get a better understanding of the origins of my native language. It also encouraged me to study different versions of the Bible and other religious writings, whether as a believer, a skeptic, or somewhere in-between.

My views in many things, including religion, may have changed since my days as a youth in in Sunday School, but my respect, love, caring and compassion for others, regardless of what or who they worship has never changed. As a child, I was told that magic was evil, and quite frankly, it wasn't until I got older and started thinking critically rather than just believing what I was told without question, that I was able to not only enjoy magic, but practice the art.

Thank you again for sharing your opinion with me.

Best wishes,

Jeff

p.s. - Don't worry about the worms. That's often a good way to find the best apples.
brownsentertainment
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Perhaps "illusions" is a better term for the religious world. Also, didn't Jesus tell someone to go look in a fish's mouth and find a coin?
Mike Melito
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I realized last night that there really is a difference between Biblical Christianity and Modern Christianity.

Honestly if someone want to do a trick that Jesus would do, take advantage of situation in a library (other thread), etc. Go ahead. Knock yourself out. Say what you want when you want. God is going to judge every THOUGHT and INTENTION and reward (or punish) accordingly.
Donald Dunphy
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Hi Mike -

I'd like to comment on something you said in your post.

You mentioned the concept of "reward" vs. "punishment".

It seems to me, from what I've read and learned about, that when it comes to unbelievers, that yes, there will be punishment upon judgement. And there will be no rewards.

However, for believers, it is different. Yes, they will be rewarded. In the case of things they did in the flesh, or contrary to God's plan, that is as wood and stubble and hay that will be burned away. It is not building up rewards, which are as gold and precious stones. See 1 Corinthians 3:11-13.

However, it seems to me that it isn't Biblically accurate to believe that God punishes his children (Christians).

On earth, God "disciplines" his children, which is something different than "punishment". The purpose of discipline is to bring them back to the right way, much like a parent disciplines and corrects their own child.

And when we go before the judgement seat, because we are in Christ, Jesus receives and has already paid for all of the punishment we deserve for our sins. So, we will never receive punishment at that time, either.

Food for thought, about whether God's children can ever be "punished".

I once read a great story that illustrated the concept of God "disciplining" his children. I think I read it in an entry in "The Daily Bread". There were two little boys, brothers, playing at a pond. The younger brother had a toy sailboat. He launched the boat. He was playing with it near the shore. It drifted out of his reach, and he became very upset. He started crying. He watched in horror as his older brother picked up some rocks and started throwing them at the boat. He couldn't understand why his brother was being so mean, trying to sink his boat. Then, through his tears, he realized that his older brother was actually throwing the rocks beyond the little boat. By doing so, he was creating waves and ripples which drove the boat back to shore, to be rescued. Likewise, God allows for discipline in our lives, for when we wander away from Him. It may seem like hardship and pain, but it has a purpose to drive us back into a right relationship with Him. It's up to us, how we respond to that.

- Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
Jeff J.
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"God is going to judge every THOUGHT and INTENTION and reward (or punish) accordingly."

That just seems wrong. Everyone, without exception, who has the ability to think will think about good things and bad things, unless they live in a closet with nothing but a Bible (then again, the Bible is loaded with stories of fornication, violence, etc..., so you really can't get away from those thoughts). I find it hard to believe that a God who created people with the ability to think would turn around and punish them for using those thoughts that are impossible to avoid.

That certainly doesn't sound like the nice God I was brought up to love and not fear. But I suppose different folks have their own versions of God. Some are nice Gods, and apparently one of them wants to punish you for thinking. I guess it's up to the individual to decide which one they want to worship.
Donald Dunphy
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Of course God is Holy, and as a part of that, has to punish sin. To think that we should merely love God, and not fear Him, is to ignore parts of the Bible.

Throughout the old testament there are constant examples of God punishing sin and wickedness.

He will punish not only for our actions, but also for our thoughts. You can't ignore the parts of Scripture that talk about this.

For example:

Matthew 5:27-29

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
Mark005
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Quote:
On 2008-03-03 10:41, Payne wrote:
I'd wager if you asked your original question in the Coin or Street Magic sections of the Café that you'd get a completely differnt resopnce.

It's a litte slanted toward one way of thinking in here.


Might have something to do with why most of us are here...

...others, I have no clue.
Mark005
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Now - hey here is an odd thought... lets turn this around to an on topic post for this forum!

If I wanted to do a coin trick to teach about Jesus?

My thought? Spellbound. Copper to Silver to Gold at the end...
Jeff J.
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"To think that we should merely love God, and not fear Him, is to ignore parts of the Bible."

Who doesn't ignore parts of the Bible? I don't know anyone who doesn't "pick and choose what parts they adhere to and what they don't. Some people justify it by saying it was from the "Old Testament", and therefore don't go out and stone their children to death for misbehaving, or some feel that if they interperate it in their own way, they won't be grouped with fornicators and murderers if they do magic, yet that is "ignoring part of the Bible".

If I ever meet a person (who would most likely be in prison) who doesn't ignore part of the Bible, that would be a true miracle.
Donald Dunphy
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When people ignore the issues of sin and judgement, they also forget the reason that Jesus died. If God is good, without being Holy, and doesn't punish sin, then there is no purpose for Christ's death (his atoning sacrifice). The whole person of Christ becomes just a good teacher, or perhaps a lunatic, or perhaps a liar, and nothing more.

Christ's death was about more than just someone dying.

- Donald

P.S. You asked about "those who practice magic" as being condemned in the Bible. I researched this and other passages years ago, when I wrote my book, "The Bible, Christianity, and Magic: Two Essays." It's been a while since I read my own book, as I wrote it 14 years ago. A brief synopsis would be that much of the "magic" talked about in negative light, in the Bible, bears little resemblance to the "entertainment magic" that we present today. What we do is more akin to what they would call "juggling" in their time. There are different meanings for the same word, like many words. I'm not going to unpack it more on this thread, but if you are genuinely interested in understanding, you can do the research yourself. My book might help you to understand in an overview sort of way.
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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