I want you to know that I DO respect what you have here, but it felt like there was an undertone subtley saying that psychics are bad people. I think I see what you are doing here. It still has the feel of a chastisement wrapped in public service aimed toward anyone who makes a living as a psychic. I have dealt with scammers and thieves for years and even worked with a few. They are a vicious, brutal lot that cares nothing for anyone or anything but the money. Alexander the Great was one of them as well. Mentalists, more than magicians, get a bad rap because of the close association to the gypsy lifestyle that mentalism stems from. Modern day mentalists are, for the most part, far away from this. The modern reader is as well.

How ever I am reminded of a saying. If you add a tablespoon of pure water to a cup of raw sewage you have sewage. If you add a teaspoon of raw sewage to a gallon of pure water you have sewage.

My point to that is that the con artists give ALL readers a bad name. The readers have to struggle against that. Then they have people in their own sub-section fighting against them as well for the "protection of the public". What to make of it? I don't know. All I know is that if I ever decide to start doing readings, I will never tell it here.

That last bit is not aimed at anyone here. It is just based on my observations of this forum.

Samuel: I'm glad you're starting to see that this thread is not meant to do anything but share information about scammers who use the pretense of being psychic to do harm to others.

If there are real, genuine psychics, or even people who just believe that they are psychic, I would think that they would want to warn others against scammers to root out the people giving the others a bad name.

- entity

Recently posted on the Illinois State Police Website:

Fortune Telling - Monetary Gain

Many high school students and young adults visit fortune tellers for entertainment, however, most high school students do not possess the financial holdings a criminal fortune teller is looking for. Working professionals and senior citizens are more opportune targets. Criminal fortune tellers know most individual problems concern health, wealth, or love. According to experienced investigators, initial contact with some victims is made at fairs, carnivals, newspaper ads, and hand flyers. If the victim is in a vulnerable emotional state, the criminal fortune teller attempts to work a curse removal scheme or bujo (boo-joo). The following is a fictional example of how a bujo progresses.

Jane Doe is a middle-aged, well educated, professional. Her husband of 25 years dies; she has recently been diagnosed with a serious illness. Every day on her way home from the office, Jane passes "Mrs. XYZ's Psychic Readings." Jane decides to stop one afternoon for the $5 special. After an initial tarot (pronounced ta-roe) card reading or maybe a little palm reading, the "psychic" informs Jane there is indeed some "dark evil" surrounding her life, which needs to be removed.

After several visits, Jane is told the "dark evil" surrounding her life is being caused by her late husband's insurance money. The "psychic" rubs an egg around Jane's body to absorb some of the evil. When the egg is cracked open, an ugly, disgusting mass (usually made up of hair, bread, and maybe a small plastic devil's head) is discovered inside the egg.

The "psychic" tells Jane she must bury the insurance money in the graveyard. Jane is understandably reluctant to perform such an act. The "psychic," pretending to be a compassionate person, volunteers to bury the money for Jane (the psychic buries the money right into her own pocket).

Jane's curse removal therapy continues for the next year. After several thousand dollars of her money has been "cleansed," the "psychic" suddenly disappears, probably to another state. The bujo is now complete.

How do criminal fortune tellers convince their customers of their supernatural ability to predict the future? They rely on a technique called "cold reading." By using a series of generalized statements, vague enough to fit anyone, the victim is convinced the statements are specific to their life. When a "cold reader" combines a gimmick such as tarot cards, tea leaves, a crystal ball, or palm reading with generalized personality statements, the illusion of psychic ability is created.

Theft by deception is illegal. It is the responsibility of law enforcement to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Aggressive prosecution and public education are two key factors in reducing potential victims from these con artists.

Don't let embarrassment prevent you from reporting criminal activity. The con artist relies on their victims being reluctant to admit they have been scammed.

If you have been a victim or know someone who has been victimized by a criminal fortune teller, please report the incident to your nearest law enforcement agency.
These scams are just a few of the numerous frauds perpetrated annually. Each year thousands of victims lose millions of dollars from these scams. The deception list continues to grow each year, making scams, their victims, and the exact dollar amount almost impossible to track. Anyone can become the victim. People of all ages, educational levels, and incomes fall victim to scams daily.
Gathering and sharing of information is vital, especially when you are dealing with these transient, criminal suspects, and the thefts, scams, and frauds they perpetrate.

Thanks Rex. I will.

Here's one...

- entity

Psychic Hoaxes
How Much Would You Pay to Remove a 'Curse' From Your Family?

ABC News/July 21, 2006
By Don Dahler and Glenn Silber

It all started innocently for Jackie Haughn. She was leaving work one day last November and found a flier on her car. It was an ad from a psychic, who called herself "Ann Marie," offering readings at half price. "A couple of weeks later, I called and decided to make an appointment. It sounded interesting. I figured I have nothing to lose," Haughn said.

So the 36-year-old divorced mother of two ventured over to Cresskill, N.J., just north of New York City, to meet with the self-proclaimed psychic.

Haughn told the psychic that she wanted to know if perhaps someone might be coming into her life. Haughn said Ann Marie offered to light candles to help her meditate and pray for answers to her problems. "When she said she lights candles, it automatically makes me think it's like a spiritual thing ... a good thing ... you're praying for somebody," said Haughn.

Haughn believed the psychic was sincere and supportive, even though she charged her $25 per candle.

Haughn said she gave the psychic $75 for the candles, because the psychic was empathetic and would do things like hold Haughn's hand and tell her, "God had brought you to me."

After her first session, Haughn felt as if she could trust Ann Marie, and she agreed to come back. During that next reading, Haughn said the psychic told her something dramatic: There was a curse on Haughn and her family. Haughn said Ann Marie convinced her that by performing a number of rituals, the curse could be removed, a curse that was put on Haughn's family many years ago.

Con Artist, Not Psychic

Detective Norman Saunders of the Cresskill Police Department said the woman Haughn knew as Ann Marie was well known to police as a con artist.

"She has eight different names. Ann Marie is her fortunetelling name and Tammy Mitchell is her real name," Saunders said. "She served time in jail in Florida for the same type of offense. Her goal in life is to scam people."

Saunders said he knew of others in the county who'd gotten scammed for tens of thousands of dollars. "When you first get the statements, you kind of think, how could these people do this? But as you talk to the victims, it could be anyone that this happens to. Anyone who is vulnerable."

According to Michael Shermer, the publisher of "Skeptic" magazine and author of "Why People Believe in Weird Things," Haughn was a prime target for a psychic scam.

Could Happen to Anyone

"All of us are potentially gullible," Shermer said. "Smart people on some level are even more gullible if you can get them past their initial level of skepticism. Because most of what we believe, we believe for emotional, psychological reasons, and then we rationalize the belief after the fact, after we already hold it. Smart, educated people are better at rationalizing these beliefs."

Shermer said Haughn went from rational to gullible the moment she bought the three candles for $75. "She made a commitment that was going to be next to impossible to back out of."

Haughn felt as if Ann Marie had some sort of control over her. She talked to Ann Marie up to five times a day. "I guess I really wanted to believe her."

So much so, according to Haughn, that over the next few months she gave the psychic more and more money to remove the reputed curse.

Haughn said the psychic asked for half of her life savings, and Haughn's fear of the alleged curse compelled her to give the money over to Ann Marie.

According to Shermer, this could happen to anyone after you establish familiarity. "Once you start going down that road and you feel like you need to do this, it's very difficult to get out. Nobody walks into a psychic and in the first five minutes hands over a deed to a house or a hundred thousand dollars."

And it wasn't just cash that Ann Marie wanted. According to Haughn, there was a watch, too.

Ann Marie told Haughn she had to drive her to New York City to buy a watch that would somehow enable her "to reset time" in her life, but it couldn't be just any watch. It had to be a gold Chopard. Haughn said she bought the $20,000 watch for Ann Marie, and has never seen it since.

Apparently, even the $20,000 watch wasn't enough. Soon after, Haughn received a mysterious letter. Police are calling it an overt threat.

Threatening Letter

"I couldn't believe it," said Haughn. "I kept reading it over." When Haughn read the letter with Ann Marie, the psychic's response was, "Oh my god ... It looks like it's written in blood."

It read in part: "This is the spirit of God, my child. You must follow and obey my word. You must have $63,000 to suffer in place of you. If not, Satan will take someone."

Saunders, the detective on the case, called the letter extortion. "It's putting fear into somebody. I mean, our victims have families, and if they don't give a certain amount of money, this curse will not be lifted and something evil would happen."

"20/20" tried to talk to Tammy Mitchell (aka Ann Marie) about the allegations, but she wouldn't talk to us. Last month Cresskill police officers arrested her.

"We filed extortion charges against Ann Marie and theft by deception. It's two second- or third-degree crimes," said Saunders.

Tammy Mitchell's case will soon go before a grand jury. Jackie Haughn is still angry. "I feel like she brainwashed me."

In the end, Haughn said she gave the alleged psychic a total of $220,000. Now Haughn wants to get her money back and see Mitchell go to prison for a long time.

George Carlin is on HBO as I write this. The title and subject matter of his special addresses the same kind of extremely lengthy use of words as rants, to obsess on personal issues and that can carry on ad nauseum. Without any point whatsoever.(Such as most of the posts on this thread). The HBO show is called "George Carlin It's All Bull$#*!, And It's Bad For Ya". He's talking about people going on and on and on, about nothing.
Check it out. It makes a lot more sense than this endless "Scammers" drivel.

Peace
John

Oh yeah??

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Take THAT, Mr. Nesbit!! -Oh, wait... what were we talking about again?

I'm noting a pretty strong correlation between those that see no need for disclaimers and those that don't appreciate and the posting of psychic scammer articles.

...and you're back in the room...

I shall speak up, though my voice is a little horse at the moment due to the flu - though some of the articles are fascinating, I feel maybe building a few web pages (another cut n paste job and a simple menu linking to them) would be far better; and then maybe post that link up in here...

here's a disclaimer for you:
I do not for one minute, think what any of those scam artists have done is correct - its obviously nasty and they deserve lots of jail time, and maybe a few visits from a very large man in the showers too...

however, I think though this is an admirable public service you are doing here entity - I don't think it's really helping as many people as it could - that's why I suggested the website thing, I'm surely kirskraze would be able to help you with the marketing side...maybe even pitch in for some advertising space somewhere too to help as many people as possible with these articles?

Did you know, there was a case of someone using a routine from Docc's Band of the Hand, to scare off a scam-artist in the midwest?

The underlying subtext, or if you want something a little more Kentonesque is that indirectly, maybe you are suggesting that all those involved in any form of psyhcic fortitude within their act, by that I mean - people who don't do the same as you, and don't believe the same as you - are indirectly tarred with the same brush as these psychic scam artists...

entity - I have no problem with you posting whatever you like on here, ultimately none of my business (that part can obviously be quoted with a caustic response) but I feel in the 21st century, we should aim to be as clear and transparent with one another when discussing mentalism and all its myriad of methods and means...

if you feel you are only doing this purely as a way to enlighten us all, then so be it - I will truly believe you; but if in some tiny way you are doing this with something else in mind - I would ask you to be absolutely honest with yourself and everyone else and say so...the world won't end - I'd just appreciate and respect you for having the courage to be completely honest...

as I say, please continue in your quest, but maybe search out a wider audience?

Hi everybody, sorry I'm late. It's a totally different time dimension across the pond (everything's smaller too apparently, LOL)

Entity, just to confirm that what you stated above is correct.

I think the website is agood idea but also find no problem posting articles here also.

I've not spoken to Entity about any subtext - but if he's on the tack that I think he is (and I may be completely wrong), I'd respectfully disagree that he needs to seek out a wider audience, nor that he needs to be more direct and transparent.

The target is mentalists, not the public in general.

There's already been lengthy, direct, logical debate on this topic over the last few weeks.

This current approach, whether I've read the situation correctly or otherwise reminds me of a fantastic high school biology teacher I had. I learned a great deal about biology in those years even though he rarely 'told' me anything. He asked a lot of questions, elicited a lot of answers and generally caused a lot of frustration, but slowly and surely answers came out. For the life of me, I can't recall the name of this teaching style, but it assumes that a student already has all the knowledge they will ever have - they just need it teased out of them so to speak.

But it does come across as:

some people use ploys/mentalistic foolery to scam people under the guise of "psychic"
these people are bad
all people who claim to be psychic are bad scam artists

I understand that underneath it all, I'm willing to accept that the idea behind all this is coming from a good place...

These articles should be causing you to ask yourself questions... I can see how you could come to the conclusion that 'all people who claim to be psychic are bad scam artists'.

I'm not sure I'd go quite that far.

IMO, anyone who fraudulently claims to be psychic is just that... a fraud. Or scam artist if you prefer. If they're all scammers, is it possible to be a 'good scammer'? Or are they all bad?

There's two ways that they can be bad:

1. They exploit people's beliefs, extort money to talk to dead realtives, give poor financial or health advice etc, etc. Basically the caricature of fraudulent psychic. I hope that everyone here agrees these people are terrible and that they do cause damage. Plenty of examples of this type in the articles above - 'bad scammers' for certain.

2. They claim psychic powers, but don't speak to dead relatives and the like and often say things like 'when an area that requires professional help arises, I direct my client to a professional in the area'. In a non-reading situation, they make explicit psychic claims, or they don't use a disclaimer, or an inadequate one - or do they suitably frame their performance as clear entertainment, instead preferring to rely on statements like 'well I'm on stage, so that should be disclaimer enough'. Plenty of examples of this type here on the forum - 'bad scammers'????? Maybe.....

Let's decide how those from group 2 might be 'bad'....

A couple of assumptions:

A. The bad-scammers in 'Group 1' cause people serious harm.
B. A person who experiences a performance from 'Group 2' may be convinced by the powers displayed alone, or in combination prior or future experiences to obtain a 'service' from 'Group 1'.

If you accept both of these assumptions, then yes - all that claim psychic ability (without disclaimer or adequate framing as entertainment) are 'bad scammers'.

I'm a pretty honest person, Abraxus. I post this here because I think it's needed here. No hidden agenda.

This material is already out there on the web for a wider audience -- there are literally hundreds of sites with many hundreds of such reports -- but until now, none here. I've shared my reasons for posting these several posts back. People can believe me, or not, it really makes no difference to the reality of what I do, think, am.

- entity

Why do you think its "needed"?

as I say, each to their own - there's no malice in what I type, just kinda curious and bizarrely interested!

Read my posts. I explain it clearly.

- entity

I believe you are referring to the "Socratic Method".

Regards, Steve

From Australia's Department of Consumer and Employment Protection (A Geovenment Agency):

Preying on people’s fears, loneliness and desire to be loved and rich is a host of unscrupulous clairvoyants, mediums, astral advisers and just outright charlatans who are costing vulnerable people thousands.

“Whilst we accept that there is a place in today’s society for those who choose to be involved with psychic type activities for personal entertainment or recreation, there is an alarming number of shysters with questionable abilities who are only focussed on ripping people off”, Consumer Protection Commissioner Patrick Walker said.

“We hear of these sort of offers almost everyday, be it online, on TV, in magazines or via friends. The more sinister cases we are being made aware of however are personal approaches, arriving in the post or by email, promising great things and in some cases even threatening bad events if victims don’t participate”, Mr Walker said.

One Perth pensioner was ripped off by more than $40,000 after responding to a flood of offers to buy talismans, charms and other worthless trinkets. The 82 year old from Gosnells who is in poor health was duped into believing claims about receiving protection from evil and magic from various costly ornaments.

“In the past year alone we have received a massive 1,326 psychic type scams sent to us by vigilant consumers, however our experience tells us that this is probably just the tip of the iceberg when it comes down to how many are circulating in the community”, Commissioner Walker said.

WA ScamNet, which was Australia’s inaugural online intelligence gathering, profiling and information sharing system for scams, has been upgraded to provide users with an easier to understand format and simplified search processes to obtain scam alerts 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Online reports can also be made to Consumer Protection officers.

“WA ScamNet is our foremost tool in identifying and combating scams as it provides information and warnings quickly, depriving criminals of WA victims so hopefully our state becomes inhospitable to them and uneconomic for them to target, Mr Walker said.

Since April 2002 WA ScamNet has received more than 30,000 scams sent in by a band of regular ‘Scam Watchers’, volunteers throughout WA communities.

“As scams invade our homes and places of work in various ways, we have established email, fax and reply paid facilities to enable consumers to join the fight against scammers and send us any suspicious material”, Mr Walker said.

- entity

Thanks Steve, that's the one.

They sent the thread to die I see

...as they have to other heated threads that escalated to unnecessary personal attacks, (to which, I'm embarrassed to say, I've contributed). At first, it was irritating, as it felt like censorship. Eventually, I understood that a contentious thread does no one any good here, and that the community's best interests were being protected.