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Dan Watkins
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... and coin magic....

you can even find the double faced coin and a shell coin in there.
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Martin_H
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Isn´t Jeff McBrides 2mask and mirror" act a sort of "Gospel" Magic? He does illusions and "tricks" with a spiritual, ritual background and motivation...(see also current issue of Secret Art Journal)
Martin
life is real magic
Burt Yaroch
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Well considering the definitions supplied here Martin I would have to say definitely not.

And that raises an interesting point. Are there other forms of religious magic that are just not expressed as influentially as Gospel magic, especially here in the States? Muslem magic for example? (No 9/11 jokes please) Smile
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Dan Watkins
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Sure there is... occult magic has existed for eons.

Pharaoh had magicians that used science and sleight of hand deception to mimic some of the miracles God did through Moses in Egypt.

If you read Scot's Discovorie of Witchcraft, the whole section that exposes magic, was magic, many of those involved in occult practices used, some magic techniques as we know them within their occulting religious practices.

Martin - regarding your question, Gospel magic is more than just magic with a spiritual connotation. It usually refers to magic that teaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not just some vague spiritualism.
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Maynooth
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Yak,
Great questions! My opinion is not authoritative. But, I have certainly made my own ethic guidelines about Gospel Magic.
I am a church going Christian who performs magic. Sometimes gospel, sometimes bizarre.

At quite opposite ends of the magic poles and as such when performing bizarre magic I probably have made very different limits on myself than most bizarrists (BroDavid seems worried about me). Gospel magic simply uses magic to help to illuminate lessons about The Word.

When I perform for the people in my congregation they are well aware that I am a magician and not a miracle worker. Like it or not most people that you perform for, even in the secular world, realize that what you are doing is not supernatural but if you are convincing enough they will suspend their disbelief for awhile but they won't build an alter to you.

Uri Geller was/is condemned by a great number of magicians because he attempts to make people believe that he is NOT a magician but a miracle worker.

In Gospel magic the magic is for entertainment and teaching but the miracles are left to God.

When I performed for the Seventh Day Adventist church they asked me to make it clear that what I did was not miracles, so at the end of my performance I honestly stated that what I had done was magic for entertainment but only God can make miracles. No complaints and I was asked back so all was clear.

If magic is used to deceive people into being swindled out of their savings, giving their livelihoods away or following a false god then it is charlatanism, whether in a religious or secular vein and certainly to be condemned. If you are interested in a short monograph (or was this on too long already?) the Doc Haley company sells a pamphlet called "ethical issues for the gospel magician" by Robert H. Hill.

It is greeting card sized and 26 pages. If you get a chance to read it you'll quickly see that a lot of gospel magicians have the same questions as you.

Hope I haven't bored you to tears. Keep looking for answers! The truth is out there and so is God.

cheers
The race is long and in the end it is only with one's self.
BroDavid
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Hello Maynooth,

Excellent information. Thanks!

As for my views on Bizarre, there is some I will do - and some I will not. But for you it may be different - and no more right or wrong. But as with the early Christians who were being told not to eat meat that had been sacrificed to Idols, Paul said (highly paraphrased..) If you think it is wrong - don't do it. But don't force your view on others. And they that don't see it as wrong, then it is not wrong.

Obviously we are not talking fundamentals of the faith here. Because there are some issues that are absolute, unchanging and unchangeable by each of us.

Can't place the quote just now, but it boils down to this; In the essentials, unity, in the non-essentials - Liberty.

Thanks

BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
NickW
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Just a personal preference here - I use magical effects in the context of sermons etc. (especially for youth congregations/audiences) and in evangelism to illustrate teaching points (eg ring/nut off string/rope to illustrate freedom from slavery to sin) but not to illustrate miracles. Allegedly here in the UK Paul Daniels claimed to be able to use his (considerable) magical skill to replicate any of the miracles of Jesus. I don't want to encourage people to start thinking that way. If a 'Professor's Nightmare' helps them to think about a balanced faith in the Trinity, though, or if a Lota Bowl can show how God's grace keeps pouring, so much the better for everyone!

I know that colleagues and friends disagree - fine!
Burt Yaroch
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Quote:
On 2002-03-25 18:36, NickW wrote:
Allegedly here in the UK Paul Daniels claimed to be able to use his (considerable) magical skill to replicate any of the miracles of Jesus.


Perhaps then Mr Daniels would permit us to nail him to a cross to put him to the test.
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BroDavid
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I was thinking earlier of that all encompassing term "any of the miracles of Jesus" attributed to a Paul Daniels quote.

And I wondered about laying in the Grave 3 days, and then conquering Death AND the Grave! And there are a few more - not the least of which Yak pointed out; Dying on the Cross!

But I certainly agree with Yak! I don't imagine that if he were given that option, Paul Daniels would want to be quite that all-inclusive with his claim.

Good One Yak!

BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
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