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tboehnlein
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I can't tell you what the kid's were like 40 years ago, I wasn't performing for them then I would have been 7. I do know what I perform for them now though & several of the effects that I do were being perormed much more than 40 years ago. For Kids I do effects or presentations that must always generate either excitement, applause or some type of emotion if it does not, then it is removed or changed till it does. The effect is nothing the presentation is everything, I have to say that as I think back about performing for kids that I know that are of divorced, gay or even abusive parents I really do not recall their reactions being significantly differant then those of any other child, but that is just my observation.
Tom Riddle
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I have to say that I am it total agreement with Smartini. It is really discraceful the way so many of you are not sticking to my original topic. Kindly behave yourselves!!

Now, these are my observations. I will agree that society is changing constantly. However, as said in my original post, a child is a child is a child. During the first nine years of their lives, they decide what makes them laugh, and what amazes them. The grown ups do not decide for them. I truly believe that if a young child today was to see a show by Harold Taylor(who performed for all the Royals like Charles and Andrew when they were little boys), he or she would have as much fun as if they were to see Silly Billy, Kimmo or David Ginn. Father Christmas(Santa) is the same to a child as he always was. A traditional Punch and Judy show is the same as it was 100 years ago. It is all about presentation. It has little to do with tricks. It is all about magic.....the magic radiated by the performer and seen through the eyes of a young child.
"Yes, Virginia, there really are people named Riddle...isn't that AMAZING! And to think of all the royalties I'm missing out on! SCANDALOUS!"

Thomas Williamson Riddle III
Chelsea, UK
magicgeorge
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I made this point before but it seems to have been missed (maybe due to it's lack of sarcasm!):There will be a few things you may have to change in your presentation but the concepts and techniques remain the same. Just as old props can be still relevant today the same is true vica-versa.

Would a child from 50 years ago not relate to an over-sized wand or a wolf stealing chickens from a coop (Maybe that one would've been more relevant in yester-year!)

George
Stevethomas
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James,

Actually, while correcting grammar, your statement should say "if there WERE any evidence you actually perform magic for children", not "WAS any". Subjunctive tense can be tricky.

Steve
Tom Riddle
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There you go again Steve! Discraceful! Just as we were getting back on topic. Good points George.
"Yes, Virginia, there really are people named Riddle...isn't that AMAZING! And to think of all the royalties I'm missing out on! SCANDALOUS!"

Thomas Williamson Riddle III
Chelsea, UK
James Munton
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Steve,

While I am not incapable of making a grammatical error, I think on this occasion I am correct!

"any evidence" is an uncountable therefore it should be treated as the singular.

If there was one piece of evidence...
NOT If there were one piece of evidence...

But you are right that subjective tense can be tricky!

Where is Al when you need him - isn't he a Grammar Host?

Best,
James

Posted: Mar 7, 2008 3:16pm
George,

As always, your skill at turning a concept inside out to examine it from all sides leaves me feeling dizzy... and humbled in the presence of genius.

James
Stevethomas
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Well, if, as you claim, there is truly no evidence of this event occuring, then the subjunctive tense should be used. Subjunctive tense has nothing to do with the plurality of the subject.

And, from past dealings online with you, James, I'm sure you are humbled quite often.

Steve
James Munton
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Steve,

Im afraid I don't have any memory of you, so I have no idea what you are talking about. I must have disagreed with something you said in the past and you have harbored negative feelings ever since. Let it go, dear boy. Life is too short! You're starting to sound like poor Smartini.

While discussions about the subjunctive tense are quite fascinating, do you have anything of substance to add to this particular conversation? Otherwise, Smartini might accuse you of hiding behind a computer.

Best,
James
calamari
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The title of this thread is spot on.
"I came, I saw, SHE conquered." (The original Latin seems to have been garbled.)
Stevethomas
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No, my good friend Smartini (Jeff) wouldn't accuse me of doing that.

Of course my statement concerning your grammatical error are correct, James. I'm more highly-educated than you, and my record shows an IQ of 168.

My thoughts on the subject are, that if children are the same today as they were 40 years ago as far as what type and style of entertainment they enjoy, I would love for you to place a 10-year-old child in front of a television and see how much enjoyment they would garner from watching "Leave It To Beaver" or another show from that genre...something about 40 years old. See how long they'll sit before they ask "why is this not in color?", and get up to go play a HIGHLY-colored videogame with lots of fast motion, quick cuts, interspersed with LOUD commercials.

Entertainment that children desire these days is far different from the days of old. And, my wife is a degreed educator, as well, and she can confirm that.

And, there are no Café members who harbor (harbour for the non-Americans here) ill feelings toward you, James. We just think you're a little full of yourself and we don't like you at all and wish you would set fire to yourself with that hot book.

Steve
John Bowlin
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Hi again James

You seemed like such laid back cheerful kind of guy the couple times I conversed with you in Barry's magic shop. Thank god I never inspired your wrath! In all seriousness, your passion is appreciated.

Denny Haney and I had this discussion of kids in his shop a couple years ago. He just kind of knodded his head as I ranted on about "kids today". I was a neophyte just getting into performing for kids. I wanted to run out and buy every Wolf's prop I could get so I could stay with the times. Denny then handed me an editorial on kids by a kid show magician that had about 15 years of experience.

The article went on to rant about the impatience, disrespect, know it all, and various other twisted maladies of kids today. I read the article and said to Denny..."yes...that's it!...kids today are just a different breed!" He then handed me the headline of the article. It read something like "Challenges of today's child for magicians...March 1912."

I walked out of the shop with no new props...just a copy of Silly Billy's book and the Fitzke trilogy. And for further humbling he later handed me a recent article from the Washington Post on one of the DC areas most demanded and well paid kids entertainers,,,The Great Zuchini. Give it a read.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con......_pf.html

If you can't load the link do a Google search on "the peekaboo paradox" and you'll find it. It's a long read but quite enlightening. Now...back to cranial/character jousting!
revlovejoy
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In this long thread, I haven't seen any discussion/debate on whether anyone is facing issues related to a younger generation being less impressed by certain effects because they are more world-wise than previous generations. This is certainly true of adults, isn't it? As technology became more "common knowledge," certain methods had to change.

Is there a particular challenge in magic when so many gadgets and gizmos are part of ever day life for children in the Western world that seem to be magical in and of themselves? I posted a question here a coupel weeks ago on routines for wardrobe changing dolls, and 4 days later someone gave my daughter a princess doll with a magic wand that not only changes the color of the glowing jewel on a pendant, but the actual dress color as well.

Any thoughts on that aspect of "changing times?"
magicgeorge
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Quote:
On 2008-03-07 16:21, Stevethomas wrote:
I'm more highly-educated than you, and my record shows an IQ of 168.


Congratulations!!

Interesting point, Rev. When special effects where in their youth David Nixon tried to combine them with magic. When special effects became more common and it became evident that you could do anything with them they was (he he) then considered cheating. The fact that people often don't believe what they see on TV will often make live magic more special.

Steve Axtell's animatronics. Robert Houdin's (have I said his name right?) clockwork creations. It seems that magicians have often embraced new technology rather than it working against them. Whatever's new we can always slip a few magiciany things in to make it different from the technology you see in the high street etc

I think, on the whole, there will be very unique effects where this might be a factor however more often than not it won't be an issue.

George
John Bowlin
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Of course there are certain things that will no longer seem magical due to advances in technology. If you make the lid rise on a box with no hands you will not impress anyone in this day and age of tiny motors, remote control etc. But to make the box float seemingly unsupported is still magical. Anti gravity will certainly screw some things up for us be we are not quite there yet.

Until our minds evolve to another plane, which hasn't really changed in over 100,000 years the basic tenets of entertainment are the same today as they were a hundred or probably even 1000 years ago. Gun acts are not so cool with kids now because of political correctness but we can shoot with a Harry Potter wand instead. Change is inevitable but it is perceptions that change, not so much the nature of people themselves. We delight in the self deprecation of others as we did a hundred years ago. We love our minds to be fooled as long as we are not made to feel or look like fools.

We are ispired by mystery and intrigue because we want and need to know there are things in the world that we can discover and contemplate. We still love to laugh because it feels good. Comedic lines that killed 50 years ago fall flat today but "comedy" is larger than ever! We have TV channels dedicated to it.Human nature has not yet changed.
The Great Smartini
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Quote:
On 2008-03-07 14:02, James Munton wrote:
Smartini,

If there was any evidence you actually perform magic for children, you might be taken more seriously.

Since I only do school shows and they don't post this information on the web I can offer you some weblinks which I offer as evidence that I actually do perform for children. For what purpose would I come to the Little Darlings section of The Magic Café if I didn't perform magic for children. This is supposed to be magicians helping magicians and apparently I need to prove myself to your before any of my ideas can be seriously considered.

http://www.cityofportmoody.com/NR/rdonly......ocus.pdf
City of Chilliwack - Events
Description: The Vancouver Whitecap Women take on the Mile High Edge in league action July ... Reading Magic with The Great Smartini (Yarrow), Jul 12, 2007 ...
http://www.chilliwack.com/main/page.cfm?......ear=2007 - 124k - Cached - Similar pages
The Tri-City News - THINGS TO DO GUIDE: Spring-loaded with spirit
8 Feb 2008 ... Market & Magic. Stock up on Chinese New Year and Valentine’s Day gifts ... including a magic show with the Great Smartini, followed by a ...
http://www.bclocalnews.com/tri_city_mapl......026.html - 48k - Cached - Similar pages
The Tri-City News - Spring-loaded with spirit TODAY: Friday, Feb. 8
From 1:30 to 2:15 p.m. at the Terry Fox Library (2470 Mary Hill Rd.) is a reading celebration, including a magic show with the Great Smartini, followed by a ...
http://www.bclocalnews.com/tri_city_mapl......771.html - 48k - Cached - Similar pages
Things to Do in Vancouver - special events in vancouver, british ...
Vancouver Pulbic Library presents HOLIDAY MAGIC WITH THE GREAT SMARTINI. Get a magical start to the holiday seaon at the Oakridge Library. ...
http://www.findfamilyfun.com/eventthismo......2005.htm - 136k - Cached - Similar pages
Events
8 Feb 2008 ... Terry Fox Library hosts a free magic show with the Great Smartini at 1:30 p.m. Participants will be able to enjoy a magical celebration of ...
http://www.canada.com/coquitlamnow/news/......&k=73020 - 72k - Cached - Similar pages

Also, you fail to provide any concrete examples to support your thesis that kids with gay parents or divorced parents (or second marriage parents) react any differently to magic shows than the children of "traditional" families.

I didn't say they reacted differently but rather that the structure of families had changed and accordingly so have children. Does this mean that there isn't anything the same about them...no but they have changed. Noting the change in family structure doesn't mean that I have any problem with second marriages, gay marriage and so on. Just noting the difference that's all. You can take a child's understanding of technology and when children start showing their parents how to program a VCR, play a video game and so on then I would say that is evidence of a change. If we were to go back in time how many times would the child have more expertise than an adult.

You have read posts by plenty of magicians on this thread (who do have experience performing for kids on a weekly basis) repeatedly tell you that kids of today fundamentally enjoy the same principles of good entertainment that they always have.

The principles of good entertainment we agree upon if we also include reactions beyond just that of laughter and applause. Also, just because a number of experienced magicians say something doesn't make it so. Perhaps their observations aren't very carefully considered or reflective in nature. Some folks use Kimmo's win as evidence to support their position. The problem with this is that this is a flawed argument form. There is no direct connection between the props Kimmo uses and that he won. The props just came along for the ride because Kimmo is obviously a very fine performer. Irregardless of that Kimmo could have just as well have used his more modern props and won. So what you have is a flawed argument form where just because your conclusion is correct your argument is flawed because there is no way to determine the validity of the premises for the argument. The form is basically if A then B and from this you draw the conclusion B therefore A. The problem is that B can still occur without A being present/truthful.

Unfortunately your hyper-sensitivity and lack of a sense of humor prevent you from seeing any value in the good discussion that is taking place.

My hypersensitivity as you call it is a most natural response when someone intentionally belittles the ideas of another. Should I be hypersensitive when you call me "creepy?" Doing my job as an educator means that I need to do more than just know their names on a list. I also need to know what their families are like, how they interact with others as well as be able to assess their abilities in a number of learning outcomes as decreed by our government. This involves observing them and their work. And you call this "creepy." Again I don't feel that I'm being hypersensitive but rather that you're acting inappropriately and are doing so from behind your computer. Calling someone "creepy" to their face would likely get you a blow to the head as Monty Python would put it. Call me daft but I think that most people who read your post would find that offensive.

Finally, your posts and my responses remind me of something I've always found insightful...it goes something like..."Never wrestle with a pig. You both end up dirty and the pig seems to like it."



John Bowlin
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Wow, IQ of 168, really shows the injustice of standardized testing. Steve, please take the time to read the great Zuchini article and tell me how much kids needs and wants have changed. I can't believe you'd compare the Beav to todays television shows as a comparison. Might as well compare playstation to playstation3. "Hey kid you want this 3 week old candy bar with the bugs..or this nice new one?" If you asked a kid if he wants a new Playstation or a magician at his party...yea..guess what...ain't nobody here workin that party!

Let's keep things in perspective. I know people that can entertain kids by making faces and doing voices for hours. And if you gave them the choice of playing a video game after they are engaged in that...the video game loses every time. Capture a kids heart and you capture it's mind. Stimulate a kids optical nerve and you merely hypnotize him..temporarily.

Posted: Mar 7, 2008 6:01pm
I know that being a father carries very little clout in this thread of such erudity but. My 3 y/o's favorite things are playing trains, cars and stacking blocks and logs and then knocking them down, playing in the water, slides..etc. Why is watching television his least favorite activity? Because I actually do the things he loves with him and I engage him to think and interact.

When I go to visit my nieces and nephews that all they do at home is watch TV and play video....all they want to do when I'm there is "uncle john...make the puppets talk...make those faces...make those voices...etc." Like I said before...capture their heart and everything else follows.

Teaching is failing in so many ways today because teachers are scared to death to capture childrens hearts...no hugs...no touching...afraid to express feelings and here feelings being expressed. Nobody wants the possible ramifications of all that. Man I wish I hadn't gotten started down this path...grrrr Yea I might end up in court one day for performing fantasy magician but I bet I have a lot of really cool little character witnesses.
Clownboy
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Say James.... I've heard Gasoline works well with Fire Books.
Go ahead and try it out!


B
Smile
As the Frogs say "Times Fun when you're having Flies" Smile
kimmo
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Quote:
Of course my statement concerning your grammatical error are correct, James. I'm more highly-educated than you, and my record shows an IQ of 168.



I've no idea what my IQ is, but I do know that there are at least 2 grammatical errors in the above sentence.

By the way, that was a joke! It's time we lightened up a bit.

I thought that James' original comments on Smartini's post were nothing more than a bit of good natured ribbing - just like the comments about me performing in my trunks! It's time we learned to take these sort of comments on the chin and just give back as good as we get, without taking offense.

Back to topic - as far as kids are concerned, they like to LAUGH!! That will never change. Fifty years ago we had snakes popping out of baskets, now we have Waccoons popping out of boxes - what's the difference??
VISIT MY ONLINE STORE!: www.kimmomagicshop.com
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Tom Riddle
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"Fifty years ago we had snakes popping out of baskets, now we have Waccoons popping out of boxes - what's the difference??"

Kimmo.........I cannot believe you do not know the difference between a snake and a waccoon. You may be a world champion, but you are certainly lacking in the academic department!
"Yes, Virginia, there really are people named Riddle...isn't that AMAZING! And to think of all the royalties I'm missing out on! SCANDALOUS!"

Thomas Williamson Riddle III
Chelsea, UK
John Bowlin
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I found at least 2 as well...maybe 3. I'm as smart as Kimmo! Well maybe not but I can't agree more on the topic of laughter. If kids have changed so much why do farts still crack them up?
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