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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Feminine Mystique » » Why are there so few female magicians? (16 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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danaruns
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Quote:
On Oct 6, 2018, David_MacFarlane wrote:
Maybe. I think there's also something to the idea that men feel a need to be entertaining to attract women's attention. A guy can practice an Ambitious Card routine and get some attention from girls... A girl can get the same attention from guys by smiling.


Adult men need to get over the notion that men can gain favor from women by doing magic. Not only is it not the case for those past adolescence, it's kind of sad. See last night's SNL sketch. https://youtu.be/yAH9_HUACQ8

Fun fact: At Magic University at the Magic Castle, the students who start Magic 1 are about half women. But there are barely any who finish the courses. Perhaps the men here would like to speculate about how the innate differences between men and women are to blame for this odd and unavoidable outcome.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
danaruns
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Misogynistic, paternalistic, sexist, and dismissive magic community, lagging behind all other arts. Lack of female magician role models. Historical relegation of women to assistant status as sex objects. The vast majority of tricks, costumes, methods all designed for men's wardrobes, bodies and personalities. Women conceived of as nothing more than a "novelty act" (I actually had a producer tell me he wouldn't hire two women for a show just as he wouldn't hire two jugglers or two ventriloquists for a show), and correlating lack of work opportunities. Lack of community for women in magic. Magic as a whole is presented to the public as a masculine "power" pursuit.

Here in this very forum there are threads where male magicians talk about female magicians first and foremost about their bodies and their attractiveness rather than their magic. E.g.:

Quote:
I just love to watch female magicians.

Here's the beautiful, sexy and extremely talented Katalin


Quote:
My gosh! She is one of the prettiest girls I have ever seen! I have a problem: I can't keep my eyes off her legs! Major distraction! Yeah, this is another girl (like Alana) that teases and mesmermizes the audience with that "look". The eye contact. The little smile. You KNOW she's GOTCHA! Incredible.


Quote:
That's why I think female magicians have better misdirection than guy magicians. They have more "tools" at their disposal.


Quote:
She is so .damn BEAUTIFUL! My gosh...I can't stop watching her! She is...exotic. Same way Jolene Blalock or Jeri Ryan are exotic. Man, she could go places...


Quote:
I would like to date a female magician.


Quote:
When Katalin comes out on the stage and smiles, believe me, no one is thinking TALENT at that point. Not with a look like that.


Quote:
What most women who want to do stand-up magic have to do is, learn how to be a woman. They use to have schools to train woman to walk, move, stand up straight, etc. I think they called it charm school.

They need to use their sex appeal in a good subdued manner. Remember you have to appeal to women as well as men, and children. Having sex appeal without being sexy is very sexy.


Quote:
That architecture can be very distracting! Good misdirection! I really would like to study those artistic lines! In much closer detail...


Very disappointing.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
gomerel
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On Oct 10, 2018, danaruns wrote:
Misogynistic, paternalistic, sexist, and dismissive magic community, lagging behind all other arts. Lack of female magician role models. Historical relegation of women to assistant status as sex objects. The vast majority of tricks, costumes, methods all designed for men's wardrobes, bodies and personalities. Women conceived of as nothing more than a "novelty act" (I actually had a producer tell me he wouldn't hire two women for a show just as he wouldn't hire two jugglers or two ventriloquists for a show), and correlating lack of work opportunities. Lack of community for women in magic. Magic as a whole is presented to the public as a masculine "power" pursuit.

Here in this very forum there are threads where male magicians talk about female magicians first and foremost about their bodies and their attractiveness rather than their magic. E.g.:

Quote:
I just love to watch female magicians.

Here's the beautiful, sexy and extremely talented Katalin


Quote:
My gosh! She is one of the prettiest girls I have ever seen! I have a problem: I can't keep my eyes off her legs! Major distraction! Yeah, this is another girl (like Alana) that teases and mesmermizes the audience with that "look". The eye contact. The little smile. You KNOW she's GOTCHA! Incredible.


Quote:
That's why I think female magicians have better misdirection than guy magicians. They have more "tools" at their disposal.


Quote:
She is so .damn BEAUTIFUL! My gosh...I can't stop watching her! She is...exotic. Same way Jolene Blalock or Jeri Ryan are exotic. Man, she could go places...


Quote:
I would like to date a female magician.


Quote:
When Katalin comes out on the stage and smiles, believe me, no one is thinking TALENT at that point. Not with a look like that.


Quote:
What most women who want to do stand-up magic have to do is, learn how to be a woman. They use to have schools to train woman to walk, move, stand up straight, etc. I think they called it charm school.

They need to use their sex appeal in a good subdued manner. Remember you have to appeal to women as well as men, and children. Having sex appeal without being sexy is very sexy.


Quote:
That architecture can be very distracting! Good misdirection! I really would like to study those artistic lines! In much closer detail...


Very disappointing.

:-(((
Dougini
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A lot of those quotes are mine. I am not a misogyn...misogin...mmmph. I do not hate women! I regret my posts are taken that way. I have never been married, no kids. My one true love died of breast cancer in 2005. I am 63 years old this week. I am done defending myself. OK ladies. I am a pig. An inappropriate boor. Ugly as a stump fence, bald and fat as a butterball. Laugh at me. Knock my hat off...throw me out. I stay home a lot now. I only go out when necessary. And I keep my EYES LOWERED! No "misunderstandings" that way. I am beginning to think most women hate me. The only thing more "disliked", I have found, than a Magician is a Disc jockey. I have been both. 46 years on the radio.

Not feeling too good about being "male" right now... Smile

Doug
Taylor Haws
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On Oct 10, 2018, danaruns wrote:
Misogynistic, paternalistic, sexist, and dismissive magic community, lagging behind all other arts. Lack of female magician role models. Historical relegation of women to assistant status as sex objects. The vast majority of tricks, costumes, methods all designed for men's wardrobes, bodies and personalities. Women conceived of as nothing more than a "novelty act" (I actually had a producer tell me he wouldn't hire two women for a show just as he wouldn't hire two jugglers or two ventriloquists for a show), and correlating lack of work opportunities. Lack of community for women in magic. Magic as a whole is presented to the public as a masculine "power" pursuit.

Here in this very forum there are threads where male magicians talk about female magicians first and foremost about their bodies and their attractiveness rather than their magic. E.g.:

Quote:
I just love to watch female magicians.

Here's the beautiful, sexy and extremely talented Katalin


Quote:
My gosh! She is one of the prettiest girls I have ever seen! I have a problem: I can't keep my eyes off her legs! Major distraction! Yeah, this is another girl (like Alana) that teases and mesmermizes the audience with that "look". The eye contact. The little smile. You KNOW she's GOTCHA! Incredible.


Quote:
That's why I think female magicians have better misdirection than guy magicians. They have more "tools" at their disposal.


Quote:
She is so .damn BEAUTIFUL! My gosh...I can't stop watching her! She is...exotic. Same way Jolene Blalock or Jeri Ryan are exotic. Man, she could go places...


Quote:
I would like to date a female magician.


Quote:
When Katalin comes out on the stage and smiles, believe me, no one is thinking TALENT at that point. Not with a look like that.


Quote:
What most women who want to do stand-up magic have to do is, learn how to be a woman. They use to have schools to train woman to walk, move, stand up straight, etc. I think they called it charm school.

They need to use their sex appeal in a good subdued manner. Remember you have to appeal to women as well as men, and children. Having sex appeal without being sexy is very sexy.


Quote:
That architecture can be very distracting! Good misdirection! I really would like to study those artistic lines! In much closer detail...


Very disappointing.


I would just like to point out that many female magicians I see are hardly shy to show off there bodies.
Many of these quotes are simply pointing out an obvious advantage that women have. Men also have plenty of advantages. Saying that it is sexist to say that women can use there boobs as misdirection is like saying it's sexist to say that men have bigger hands that are better for palming, or have louder, more powerful voices.
My favorite quote from above is "I would like to date a female magician." How on earth is this sexist? I think it would be fun to date a female magician! There are very few magicians where I live and no magic shops, so I almost never get the opportunity to talk magic with anyone. It would be awesome to date somone who shares my hobby.
danaruns
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On Oct 20, 2018, Taylor Haws wrote:
I would just like to point out that many female magicians I see are hardly shy to show off there bodies.


Perhaps you're having a chicken and egg problem. I suggest that women do that because they know that's what it's going to take to get noticed, to get booked, and to be successful. This is especially true of stage magicians, where we have a century long culture of women parading around in bathing suits and heels, smiling and dancing for the men. So really, it's just a reflection of the problem. Not that there is anything "wrong" with a woman showing off her body to a certain degree, but it shouldn't be "necessary." Let's just all be thankful Penn Gillette isn't parading around the stage in a Speedo. Let's be thankful men don't have to be beautiful to be successful. Do you know any fat, ugly, successful female stage magicians?

Quote:
Many of these quotes are simply pointing out an obvious advantage that women have. Men also have plenty of advantages. Saying that it is sexist to say that women can use there boobs as misdirection is like saying it's sexist to say that men have bigger hands that are better for palming, or have louder, more powerful voices.


Um, no. And if you can't see why, I can't help you.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Mb217
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This is an interesting run of thoughts and debate here, an old circular track that will not change, and a race that cannot be won... And seems to do little beyond feed old fires as to why people do what they do and feel the way they feel. But the fire is light, and hopefully shows the way to a better way & condition. If women do not stand up for themselves, then just who exactly is going to do it? I personally believe that women are capable of anything men are capable of, if given the opportunity (I think this way about all people really). And really, deep down men know this, which is why they thwart every step forward. I don't know, I cheer every little & giant step women make. It's what has to be done to change things for the "better"...That's the only way you ever truly get to what's "best" in life...First the good, then the better, then the best. Smile

It's hard to speak for women, and typically men should not but because it's a man's world (at least in their minds and behind their hands in it) mostly where the internal thinking when all else fails is that might makes right, well, it just makes it harder for men to understand or want better to understand these "man" things/ impulses they feel are just how they feel or feel a need to relate, or something like that. Smile

I acutely think of all this back & forth when I'm watching nature shows, when you see how animals (and we are animals) sexually/socially interact. It's not that women don't like the attention, but they only like it when they like it, and usually it's when it's their time to better recognize it as something they have a need/feeling to do. Anyway, it seems they (the animals) have ways to make the males know they are interested. And the males are always interested. Smile But if the female is not, she will let you know that too, in no uncertain terms, but it doesn't stop males from trying. Sounds sorta familiar, right? Smile Interesting that if, let's say, a lion comes across a female with cubs, he may kill the cubs so that the female can sorta re-set her need/desire(?) to interact again. Now you would think, thinking like a human, that a woman would never do such and you're probably right, but there are many relative connections to us as well, just that we are of higher thinking capacity and not simply working off instinct. But at the core, the process is interestingly similar as to making one's way forward. Of course there's a lot more to it, but ain't it always the case? Smile

Our higher thinking is not devoid of instinct. In fact, our instincts for all this is certainly flirted with as well, both men and women. With our supposed "higher thinking," we are able most times to better appropriate/control our behavior, which is connected and orchestrated by the societies we are of. Mix in the possibility of "love" in the equation and you exponentially create even more to think about and consider.

In general, it is perhaps a good thing to better recognize the animal in us, and use our higher minds as we use cages to first recognize that the opposite sex are first & foremost our human equals and partners in this life, and so a strong respect is warranted to ward off the deeper impulses we might feel at times to pursue. Can't say it's always easy, but you always have time to better think about your approach toward any possible better outcome than you might ordinarily get from such interactions. So there's no "trick" to it, but when it's right it certainly can possibly be quite magical for you when it's magical for her as well. Smile
*Check out my latest: Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
danaruns
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Animal instinct? Gosh, it almost sounds like it's about sex rather than magic. Of course, sex can be magic if you do it right... Smile
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Dougini
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On Nov 1, 2018, danaruns wrote:
...Of course, sex can be magic if you do it right... Smile


Too true...I feel better now... Smile
equivoque
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Women already make 15 to 20% less then Men. Therefore, on a magician salary…
Tim Snyder
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On Oct 7, 2018, danaruns wrote:

Fun fact: At Magic University at the Magic Castle, the students who start Magic 1 are about half women. But there are barely any who finish the courses. Perhaps the men here would like to speculate about how the innate differences between men and women are to blame for this odd and unavoidable outcome.


This is shocking to me! Any program where half the participants are unable to complete the program is a FAILED program. Do you know what if any steps the Castle is taking to rectify this situation? It isn't an "unavoidable outcome" like you state. The magic community as a whole may be unwieldy, but it should not be that difficult to implement changes to a specific program. You start by surveying the dropouts. What made them quit? You involve secret shoppers. Have some female members/magicians join classes incognito to experience the class first hand and to have the opportunity to casually listen to the other female participants' concerns. Once specific issues have been identified, the Castle can and should address them. Instructors need to change their teaching style if it is off putting and / or non-productive. Likewise, a good teacher can set the tone of a classroom -- shutting down inappropriate behavior and facilitating good interaction.

I would think this would be quite EMBARRASSING,not to mention financially troubling if this statistic got some coverage. If women knew that they were wasting their money taking a class where it was "unavoidable" that they would drop out, then the Magic 1 classes would decrease by nearly half (at least according to you). Knowing how important this issue is to you,and should be to all of us, I again ask, what is the Castle doing to change this?
Mb217
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It would be nice to see someone like danaruns teach the course (think she is from there?). She knows the issues, knows her magic, and better than debating with men about old races and circular tracks, how's about trying to make changes for the better where she could also inspire by example and help show the way, and change such numbers.

Loads of women admirably now stepping to the plate in this political year to try and make real difference and pull progress better forward despite the old obstacles and challenges. Just sayin'.
*Check out my latest: Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
Jacene
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I very rarely come here on the café, but stopped by quick tonight.
This thread caught my attention. I will admit, I never read EVERYTHING! But, I did skim through and found some thoughts very interesting!
I thought I would add my 2 cents and answer the initial question, since I would fall into the category of most of what has been talked about!
Here’s the thing…. My dad is a magician, I grew up with magic. As a kid, I thought I would love to follow in his footsteps. I went to several magic meetings and performed a little bit. BUT, like the other girls in the statistics above – I decided it wasn’t for me.
Why?
Because I was a young girl at a meeting with a bunch of ‘old men’. (okay, maybe they weren’t ALL ‘old men’, but regardless of age, they were men. And most WERE old! LOL)
Anyway…I had nothing in common with them. I felt strange, being a little girl at these meetings with NO OTHER WOMEN! It was weird! So, I stopped going!
How’d I get back in?
I grew up! I quit caring about guys or girls – I just did my thing! I got to an age when being around a bunch of guys didn't bother me anymore. I
It might strange for a man to read this. Something so minor as, “why would a girl care if she’s the only girl there?” You wouldn’t get it unless you were THE ONLY LITTLE GIRL THERE!
What 10 year old girl would like to hang out in a room with a bunch of men between the ages of 30-75? (give or take). Not me, that was for sure!
Anyway, I don’t want anyone to take this post the wrong way, but I wanted to share my view.
I know what's it's like to be that girl who feels out of place!
Had there even been ONE other girl there - I would have felt better about being there! Smile
Jacene Dickson
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Aus
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On Nov 5, 2018, Mb217 wrote:
It would be nice to see someone like danaruns teach the course (think she is from there?). She knows the issues, knows her magic, and better than debating with men about old races and circular tracks, how's about trying to make changes for the better where she could also inspire by example and help show the way, and change such numbers.

Loads of women admirably now stepping to the plate in this political year to try and make a real difference and pull progress better forward despite the old obstacles and challenges. Just sayin'.


The inference that is being made here is that inequality equals inequity, therefore, something needs to be done about it. I don't agree with that assessment at all at least in the current climate. That argument has a lot more traction in the boys club days of centuries past where women were banned from participating but those barriers to women's inclusion have largely been removed.

Not only are there morphological differences between men and women there are psychological as well which could easily account for the lack of women participating in magic.

One of the largest psychological differences between men and women is that men are more interested in things on average and women are more interested in people. In fact, it's this difference which is a large determent of occupational choice. Women choose jobs like Child-Care Providers, Home Health Care Providers, Veterinarians, Social Services Workers etc well men gravitate to professions like Carpenters and Joiners, Motor Mechanics, Electricians, Truck Drivers and Construction Managers.

Now it stands to reason that if an occupational choice can be determined in large part for the proclivity of personal preference, I don't see why the same reasoning doesn't apply to personal interests and hobbies as it does for occupations.

Is it a possibility that women on average are just not interested in magic as a whole?

Aristotle was quoted in saying "the worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal" and I couldn't agree more. While humans have this idea of equality, in the real world, equality is rare. Have you ever found two rocks that were the same size? Same weight? Same composition? Not all that common, is it? While it’s in our best nature to try to make people equal, they are all unique and, by definition, unequal.

Meritocracy based structures all start from an equal starting point, but some will work harder, some will work smarter, others will find shortcuts, or just get lucky all of which has a direct effect on the level of progression each individual has. Now I don't for a minute discount the possibility of some sort of sexism being a contributing factor to this, but correlation doesn't equal causation. There are many reasons why inequality exists with inequity being only one of them.

Magically

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Tim Snyder
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On Dec 15, 2018, Aus wrote:

Is it a possibility that women on average are just not interested in magic as a whole?


No, it is not. My daughter got me into magic. A Magic Castle member posted above that nearly half the people taking the entry level magic class at the Castle are women. Most of the women who have posted on this topic here say the issue is not that women have no interest in magic, but are made to feel uncomfortable by the magic community. Which is why I asked the Magic Castle member if she knows whether the Castle is taking steps towards improving the experience of women who take their classes.
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On Dec 15, 2018, Tim Snyder wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 15, 2018, Aus wrote:

Is it a possibility that women on average are just not interested in magic as a whole?


No, it is not. My daughter got me into magic. A Magic Castle member posted above that nearly half the people taking the entry-level magic class at the Castle are women. Most of the women who have posted on this topic here say the issue is not that women have no interest in magic, but are made to feel uncomfortable by the magic community. Which is why I asked the Magic Castle member if she knows whether the Castle is taking steps towards improving the experience of women who take their classes.


Your examples are anecdotal at best Tim, and using danaruns "Fun Fact" of women making up half a magic class at the Magic Castle as an indicator of interest is intellectually dishonest. People motivations for doing things are as varied as to why people stop doing things and since danarun has offered no further insight into the reasoning behind their subsequent enrollment and premature departure from the course it's speculative at best and hardly the proof that you claim it to be.

So what possible reason could there be for why women are enrolling and dropping out of a magic class as they seem to be in this case?

Sometimes, students sign up for a course thinking they’re getting one thing, only to discover after it starts that it’s something else entirely. They might have expected more practical knowledge, and feel disappointed in the theory. Or they might have expected the course to talk about one aspect of a subject, only to have that subject glossed over.

Like many other reasons, good communication about course content can address this problem.

Low motivation is another possible reason.

Low motivation isn’t the same as laziness. There are many reasons a student could lose motivation, some of which we’ve already touched upon. A demanding workload can leave a student feeling discouraged, or the lack of hands-on instruction could make the student feel like no one’s paying attention to their presence on the course and feel their not getting the tuition they feel they need.

Fixing issues such as the pacing and structure of the course can fix low motivation at the same time. Or you could try sending an email to check in on estranged students who haven’t had any activity from in a few days or up the number of teachers offering hands-on instruction. Sometimes a small prompt can encourage students to re-engage.

Now those sound like plausible reasons in my view as to why a student might join a course and subsequently drop out and none of them have anything to do with sexism or being uncomfortable with the magic community, but as I said before until danarun clarifies the situation with sustainable facts on the matter, to use it as proof of anything is speculative at best and therefore questionable.

Now let's talk about the topic of the magic community making women uncomfortable and whether that necessarily means that the magic community is to blame by default.

Recently talking to a female friend in the UK who picked up a copy of DIVA magazine, something she reads occasionally when the mood takes her or she spots someone on the cover she particularly has an interest in she found an interview by Lea DeLaria, an openly gay actress, comedian and Jazz musician most well-known for her role in Orange Is The New Black, was featured on the cover. A quote from her interview read ‘If I offended you, you needed it’. Lea explained that whenever she caused offence, for simply being who she was, she was able to recognise that it had nothing to do with her and everything to do with the person who was offended. This gave her a whole new insight into taking offence. She was happy to cause offence in order to highlight the judgemental, ill-informed and at times downright discriminatory views some individuals had. She knew that if people took offence with her, it was down to their internal beliefs, and nothing to do with her.

If we need a more relevant example of that Tim lets take a look at Jacene post on this very thread and ask yourself which man out of the many that were triple her age at that club meeting was responsible for making a ten year old girl uncomfortable at her first attendance of a magic club? Was it their intent to do so? Did they even realise that they had an effect on her in that way? My guess is it wasn't. It is not our business or our fault if we make others feel uncomfortable due to their own misguided thoughts, beliefs or judgements. That is on them. And it’s up to them to figure out whatever has got them triggered.

To culminate this to a single point, being uncomfortable is not a reliable metric to diagnose the source of an issue and unless we advocate for the level of diagnoses you seem to push for in your responce to danaruns magic class post I doubt we ever will.

Magically

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danaruns
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Aus,

First, understand where I am coming from. I am a woman, and I am a magician. I am on the board of directors of the Women Magicians Association. I am on the Women in Magic Committee for the Academy of Magical Arts. I have been a student at Magic University at the Magic Castle, and I have taught students in Magic University at the Magic Castle. I have written articles about women in magic. I have read dissertations on the historical and modern roles of women in magic. I have interviewed women magicians, I know lots of women magicians, and I have spoken to a large number of women magicians from all over the world about what it means to be a woman and a magician. I tell you all that to tell you this:

Your two posts above are illustrative of the problem for women in magic. And it is startling how you have managed to ignore and dismiss the contributions of women in this thread, and when you should be listening, you are instead mansplaining. You are dismissing anecdotal evidence, and then you are using anecdotal evidence. And, of course, you make tremendous assumptions, you (maddenigly) stereotype women, and you speak in the "fish bowl syndrome" of your male perspective.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to debunk the many painful and incorrect assertions in your posts, nor given what you have written do I believe it would do any good. Suffice it to say that it is a multi-pronged problem, and you can find several of those prongs described in this thread, were you inclined to listen, which you are not.

Again, you might begin with the fact that in Asia over 50% of magicians are women. This fact alone would pique the interest of a good faith listener.

Quote:
If we need a more relevant example of that Tim lets take a look at Jacene post on this very thread and ask yourself which man out of the many that were triple her age at that club meeting was responsible for making a ten year old girl uncomfortable at her first attendance of a magic club? Was it their intent to do so? Did they even realise that they had an effect on her in that way? My guess is it wasn't. It is not our business or our fault if we make others feel uncomfortable due to their own misguided thoughts, beliefs or judgements. That is on them. And it’s up to them to figure out whatever has got them triggered.


This quote of yours is a prime example of you leaping from the dock, missing the boat entirely, landing in the water, and declaring yourself captain of the ship. Good grief, man, that's some Olympic level mental gymnastics. Take a hundred paces back and perhaps you can see the forest rather than that one misshapen tree you are intent on studying. (Sorry for mixing those metaphors there!) While Jacene is describing cause and effect, you are looking for blame and ways to deflect it. And by doing so, you are missing the whole world.

Perhaps if one man had truly befriended her, Perhaps if she had a female role model. Perhaps if there were other women there. Perhaps if she had seen or even heard of one other female magician. Perhaps if they went out of their way to make her feel included. Perhaps if they didn't assume things about her in the way you are making assumptions here. Perhaps if magic wasn't so much designed for men's bodies and men's wardrobes. Perhaps if someone made room for a girl and her approach, even though they were different from the general experience. Perhaps a million other things, none of which involve "blame" and "offense/offence." But none of that happened. And that should be instructive for you, though it clearly was not.

I won't even address the irony of you calling the take from my "fun fact" intellectually dishonest.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
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Quote:
On Oct 7, 2018, danaruns wrote:

Fun fact: At Magic University at the Magic Castle, the students who start Magic 1 are about half women. But there are barely any who finish the courses. Perhaps the men here would like to speculate about how the innate differences between men and women are to blame for this odd and unavoidable outcome.


Well, danarun, if you don't want men mansplaining things to you maybe you shouldn't have open invitations giving men the opportunity, just a thought. Yes, I have assumed a lot but isn't that what speculating is? I don't think I was trying to hide that fact.

Quote:
I am a woman, and I am a magician. I am on the board of directors of the Women Magicians Association. I am on the Women in Magic Committee for the Academy of Magical Arts. I have been a student at Magic University at the Magic Castle, and I have taught students in Magic University at the Magic Castle. I have written articles about women in magic. I have read dissertations on the historical and modern roles of women in magic. I have interviewed women, magicians, I know lots of women magicians, and I have spoken to a large number of women magicians from all over the world about what it means to be a woman and a magician.


Well since you are in a position of prestige and influence within the women's magic community and well versed in women's issues what investigative measures have you taken to identify the reasons of the high drop out rate of women in this magic class. Have you implemented any similar investigation measures to those suggested by Tim Snyder or have you just thrown this titbit of information out there with nothing more than hearsay?

Let me very clear on my defensiveness on this issue and where I'm coming from. You have aligned yourself with the feminist movement and I have great respect for the achievements of first and second wave feminism but serious disliking for the third. As a concept, I don't have a problem with women fighting for equality where there is a legitimate case to campaign for it however I do have misgivings on how it is implemented if feminism is foundational doctrine your pushing this issue with. Third wave feminism I believe is nothing more the PC authoritarianism masquerading as women's rights wanting nothing more than blaming men for all ills that have befallen women, that's what the patriarchy isn't it? The collective assumption that societies structures as founded on a tyrannical male patriarchy to the subjugation of women. With feminist terminology like mansplaining, I'm surprised I've haven't been told to sit in the corner quietly to contemplate my toxic masculinity well minimising my manspreading. All these wonderful inclusive terms courtesy of feminism lending themselves nicely to equality and bipartisanship between the sexes that feminism professes to advocate for, and you wonder why I'm deflective. Before we get into the tit for tat argument I don't condone similar language towards women from men either.

I also have concerns how far this rabbit hole goes, associated baggage usually isn't that far away. Melies in another thread called Sexism and magic (redux) is moonlighting issues like seeing magic distributors say that they will no longer produce advertising copy for its effects in which *every* spectator is referred to as "she," and *every* magician is referred to as "he". Are he and she verboten words now? Watching how this sort of thing unfolds in wider society where the pronoun politics predominates to the point where context and intent mean nothing and peoples fragile sensibilities and misguided interpretations are everything thus creating a dangerous climate of snowflakes, compelled speech and verboten words.

If at the end of the day your motivations are altruistic in nature and not derivative of the Authoritarian gender politics I suspect this is, you have my support. If on the other hand if this what you're going for then don't consider me your ally. I don't want this poisonous crap in my art.

Magically

Aus
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