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Tom Riddle Special user Chelsea, UK 507 Posts |
I believe the Little Darlings may be going through a Metamorphosis. It appears that there are two distinct theories about children's entertainment. There are those put forward by the professionals, and those of the beginners and amateurs. I am glad to see that a number of top professionals around the world are coming on here and offering much wisdom. The pros are getting more and more bold about expressing their views. The big discussion on many of the threads currently here on the front page involve the professionals versus the rest. The pros are encouraging creativity, practice, discipline, and producing great entertainment with minimal or no props. The amateurs, beginners, and magic club Cris Angel wannabees, are focusing on the latest and greatest dealer's props, and ask ridiculous questions like "what tricks should I buy to be a successful children's entertainer?"
It will be interesting to see how all this plays out over the coming weeks. Hopefully it will elevate some of the discussion on this forum, so that we can all learn something useful. If a man or woman can make a successful living out of entertaining children for many years, and earn well above the average income doing so, surely some of you should take notice of these folk.....would you not agree? It seems that whenever a pro says something wise, which may not be popular, they are attacked and accused of being negative. This is a real shame!
"Yes, Virginia, there really are people named Riddle...isn't that AMAZING! And to think of all the royalties I'm missing out on! SCANDALOUS!"
Thomas Williamson Riddle III Chelsea, UK |
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BIlly James Special user 991 Posts |
I haven't poked my nose in here much of late, but I agree with what you are saying in regards to the latest prop etc. Mind you whether the stage is overflowing with Wolf's products or just a chair with a carrot and a pair of topiary sheers, it matters little because it's not the prop it's the pro.
I dare say that any of the pro's on this site could pull any props of the shelf of a magic dealer and turn them into a brilliant routine. It's been said that for kids it's not the destination it's the ride, however this isn't entirely true because it all depends on who it is that's driving the train. :) |
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DJBrenton Regular user Midlands, England 129 Posts |
Can I just ask what a 'top professional' in childrens entertainment is please? I worked pretty much 7 days a week for 20 years or so. My last year of childrens entertainment and table magic I earned £87,000 ( around $175,000)but only ever considered myself a 'worker'.
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James Munton Inner circle Dallas, TX 1199 Posts |
7 days a week for 20 years - you must be exhausted!
Where can I get the carrot and the topiary shears trick? |
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DJBrenton Regular user Midlands, England 129 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-03-18 07:49, James Munton wrote: I'm afraid you've lost me on the carrot and topiary shears comment. |
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Lyndel Inner circle wrote the theme to the TV show COPS! 1623 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-03-18 07:49, James Munton wrote: That's a Collectors Workshop piece James... Very expensive! Lyndel |
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DJBrenton Regular user Midlands, England 129 Posts |
AAh, I see. James was expecting me to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of effects. That's why I asked the question. I was just someone who entertained people for money ( and enjoyed doing it) as opposed to a student. I worked for my audiences rather than to impress other magicians with my knowledge.
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts |
Magicians helping Magicians does not mean cramming our ideas and experiences down a novice's throat. It isn't belittling those who can't wrap their minds around our concepts.
It isn't the novice asking questions then picking through the advice offered that harms these forums. In my opinion, it is the hot air expelled by those who believe that they are personally the know-all-end-all of entertainment knowledge. These "My way is the only way" responses hinder discussion, repress honest questions and generally prevent many from actively seeking help. The novice questions - the very questions that most of us once asked - are often met with derision, a brusque "Do a search!" or are answered in some high-falutin' manner that simply doesn't respond to their immediate needs - or what they perceive as their immediate needs due to lack of experience or knowledge. This does not make them wrong or of less value than the "seasoned pros." Given time and continued support, they'll either realize their errors and recognize the value of the advice given earlier or they'll move on to other endeavors. What I'm saying here is that when someone asks a real question in good faith, consider their perspective and respect their effort. Offer your advice but don't respond with offense if they choose to ignore it. Lose the "We're the pros - How dare they" attitude. Most importantly, recognize that OUR way is not always the RIGHT way for every individual. Offer the advice in a helpful, take-it-or-leave-it manner and move on. Be a mentor not a tyrant. This mentality, more than anything else, will nurture a rich, supportive forum.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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DJBrenton Regular user Midlands, England 129 Posts |
Hear! Hear!
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magicalmischief Loyal user Massachusetts 239 Posts |
Bravo! I couldn't say it better...actually I had problems saying this in general LOL. You effectively put my feelings into the proper context.
Thanks!
Seems to me that death is just natures way of telling us to SLOW DOWN!
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todd75 Inner circle 1277 Posts |
"what tricks should I buy to be a successful children's entertainer?"
Anyone that has to ask that kind of a question has not a clue as to how to entertain children in my book and most likely will be yesterday's news in a matter of a few months. I am all about creativity. Just yesterday I talked with a fellow performer who I have never met. His whole idea of being a professional was going to the magic shop and buying new props every month. He kept going on and on about how much stuff he brings to a show. After 10 minutes I had to show him what I bring to a show. I opened up my car door and pulled out my briefcase. He was blown away! The point is that pro's work A LOT and not just because we advertise but because the quality of the show we provide is top notch. I understand that the magic Café was designed to help others out and I am all for that. I just don't understand why it is that sooooo many people think they can be an instant success overnight because they got offered to do a show they have never done before or because they own every new magic trick on the market. |
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DJBrenton Regular user Midlands, England 129 Posts |
"what tricks should I buy to be a successful children's entertainer?"
It's a valid question for someone starting out. What else are they to do but waste money on flashy, over-promised rubbish. Everyone has to buy their first effect. Everyone has to perform their first show and everyone has to perform their first paid show. Whenever I've mentored a novice I always accompanied them to a magic shop to get their first few effects. In fact, come to think of it, when I first started out I asked the shop owner to advise me on what might make a childrens show. Maybe there should be a separate board for those who wish only to discuss magic with their peers whilst those who are prepared to tolerate questions we probably asked someone ourselves once carry on. |
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magicalmischief Loyal user Massachusetts 239 Posts |
"what tricks should I buy to be a successful children's entertainer?"
It's not the effect, it's the presentation, energy and overall performance that makes one a successful entertainer. This is my opinion anyway
Seems to me that death is just natures way of telling us to SLOW DOWN!
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts |
Todd, I don't disagree with you or Tom at all. We share our experience with our beginners and they still buy all the "Instant Magic Star" and "No Practice, Sleights or Skill Required" marketing rubbish. Gradually, they discover the folly of their ways and move on or out.
That said, I will wager that you, Todd, have or once had shelves filled with some of this very rubbish - before you learned the source of true entertainment value and marketability. As performers, none of us start out as Copperfields, Burtons or Roys - not even the Copperfields, Burtons and Roys. As with any aspect of life, we mature with experience, trial-&-error and role models. This maturing process usually creates better, more capable, more flexible and more knowledgeable performers. Those who stay in the "Instant Magician" phase may be beyond help - but still deserve to be treated with courtesy. Let's help our novices learn to walk before we expect them to soar. As for a separate forum, DJ? How difficult is it to simply review and move past those posts that irk us, hold no interest for us or that leave us with no constructive advice to offer? The problem is, too many jump in and ridicule rather than passing the query to those who want to help. I don't see segregation as the answer...of course, I don't speak for everyone! Oh, yeah - I keep forgetting to add... :punkrocker: Day 18
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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lou2 New user 46 Posts |
Hi,
I think the thing is when you are a full time pro with lots of experience you cannot help but have strong opinions! if you are new or an simply experienced performer (but experienced at performing std cookie cutter as they are written effects)then you probably wont have that strong an opinion as you are used to being spoon fed. Most pros have strong opinions. I think it was Eugene Berger who said (roughly) " It does not matter if you agree or dissagree with what I am saying but rather that you have an opinion" The pros speak out because we have been there and dealt with it we have an opinion lou |
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calamari Elite user The San Francisco Bay Area 429 Posts |
Pro's vs Joe's what a crock of .... I have seen ton's of "pro's" that suck the wind out of a show but somehow manage to market them selves effectivly enough to make a living and obviously perform well enough to get repeat business. and I just love the "hey I can walk in with just my breifcase with a hunk of rope and a newspaper" guys, who say don't buy props if you do you stink. what a load.if you are happy with no prop shows and your audience love it, great for you, if you have a stage full of props and your audience love it Great for you. your show is your show, do what makes you and your audience happy,
and please, amateurs and noobs, until you see a so called pro's show I would not take anything they say as gospell, a hole lotta chest beating usually means a crappy performer (no matter how successful)
"I came, I saw, SHE conquered." (The original Latin seems to have been garbled.)
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James Munton Inner circle Dallas, TX 1199 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-03-18 08:26, DJBrenton wrote: No, I was referring to the post above yours. See I actually read other people's posts, not just my own. |
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DJBrenton Regular user Midlands, England 129 Posts |
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On 2008-03-18 12:59, James Munton wrote: Responding to two different posters at once, and women say we can't multitask. |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
How does one become creative? What behaviors are demonstrated that the individual is a Pro? And many more rhetorical questions like this are extremely difficult to answer. Yes, there are many answers, but which answer is right, the person who works 7-days a week, for 20 years? A person who offers simples solutions to comedy magic like the package Vanishing Bandana? or may the person who has taken three years of theater, and went to summer stock to become a theater major, only to find himself using this knowledge to perform magic.
Add in the different styles and techniques and venues and you have many more variables. My friend John Bundy, does a knock-out job every year during Halloween with his full blown out theater Spooktacular show. He is one of many theater majors who has used his skills to present magic in an entertaining way. Bundy has the right combination of music, illusions, stage settings, backdrops, lighting, and professional actors and actresses. My friend Chris Caphart, violates those basic principles stated by many what one should and should not do in entertaining children, Chris does so in an entertaining way, that one questions those principles. So everything is "not cut into stone". I watch and read "The Little Darlings section" and what is missing in the last year or so are those routines that help others get into this business. It's the bickering, accusations, flaming, "I am better than thou" attitude that has caused many not to post. The "Magicians helping magicians" in this section is gone. It's become a "forum game". I agree whole heartily with Skip, and not because he is a fellow KIDabra member, but because we have met personally, and talked about the performers and lectures we saw and have met at KIDabra, and I know where his "heart" and "soul" is related to entertaining children. I also know we both have seen a lot of death in our career paths and now have sought out the laughter to counter-balance that portion of our lives. We both choose not to waste the time we have left in our lives bickering on what is right or wrong, we choose to spend time helping other do what we love to do. I spent much of my life assessing and training individuals on the behavior skills required of their jobs, writing behavior objectives in related to a variety of positions in management, and technical skills to do one's job. No such behavior skills knowledge and written objectives exists related to the field on magic. The closest book I found to do this is "Strong Magic" related to close-up magic; still the objectives are not listed. Also the books by Frizkee, touch on the subject. The Trick Brain for creativity, Showmanship for Magicians related to the theater aspects of entertaining with magic. Silly Billy comes close with some principles related to entertaining children. Here is a link related to Scoring Criteria, to help others judge entertainers during contests. These are behavior objectives which each entertainer can be Assessed for skills related to the visual actions being done. In simpler terms "judged fairly". In broader terms to help one develop a unique show/routine. So what has this "Metamorphosis of the Little Darlings" section evolved into? From my perspective, I don't see "Pros" helping others; I have seen those that did, leave, or no longer post. I've seen more Café members banned than routines that one can build on in the last couple of years. I can firmly say, I have helped many and still do so, but privately, because they have asked me to do so privately. I refuse to play the "Little Darling's Forum Game". I can still stand tall, and hold my head up high, for the many helpful postings. I continue doing what the purpose of this section originally was meant to do: Our KIDabra Chapter has grown to the largest in the world, and bigger than many IBM Rings and SAM Assemblies. This is not to say we are pros but it is attributed to "Children Magicians Physically Helping Children Magicians." What would be nice is to see those who haven't placed a routine in this section do so, cut to the chase as they say, give of themselves, that's the true sign of a professional. As Jeff McBride said in his lectures, strive to become a "Sage" in magic. Are you a Sage?
Dennis Michael
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calamari Elite user The San Francisco Bay Area 429 Posts |
Sure, leave it to Dennis to chime in with silly things like logic and sound advice and being respectful yadda yadda yadda... LOL
in my not always humble opinion here are my thoughts on how we can do better here. 1. remember, we can only offer opinions here, some based in more experience than others, but just because you can not climb mount everest does not mean someone else can't. 2. be as specific as possible in your questions leaving room for interpretation may garner a lot of unwanted info. 3. if you don't want to answer the actual question, don't. 4. if someone offers you advise, that is not what you are looking for, consider it or ignore it and move on. 5. if someone tells you that, in there experience you should reconsider doing something because being unprepared for this thing could cause you to unwittingly damage the business of performing, RECONSIDER IT, make sure you understand the consequences and do everything in your power to advance the art of magic,(note I did not say don't do it) 6. remember no one has the obligation to take you seriously. 7. try to be helpful without being a jerk. 8. try to receive help without being a jerk. 9. remember the advice here is free and worth every penny. 10. last, note that those who do this for a living, need all those who don't, to be very careful not to take food out of their families mouth and they can get a little grumpy when it seems as though that might happen.
"I came, I saw, SHE conquered." (The original Latin seems to have been garbled.)
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