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dblatt25 New user 54 Posts 
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There are no ethics in Magic other than keeping the secret. The whole point of magic is to do the impossible. As magicians we are all liars, but we are honest liars. So use any means possible to produce the effect that you want on a spectator or group of people. You are lying to them about your powers any way, so why not make what you did literally appear as real magic, in short, use a stooge.
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3567 Posts
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Troll
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3068 Posts
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LOL!
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22834 Posts
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What?
Wait I get it all magic should be stooged. Yep great plan. I gotta admit though, it would make magic far more expensive to have to employ actors for every single trick we do now wouldn't it? I guess the internet has really degraded the way some look at our craft hasn't it?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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vai Regular user 135 Posts
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Hang on a second guys,
If we ignore the comment about all magic converting to stooging methods, then there is quite an interesting point here. Is it possible to blatantly lie to someone's face whilst maintaining a clean ethical conscience ? We have our own code of etiquette as performers but can what we do ever be described as truly ethical ? Just something to think about
Check out my releases at http://stores.lulu.com/mentalism
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22834 Posts
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Can a guy on TV or movies or stage who does not really murder someone be considered ethical? Do you have to shoot and kill someone so you are "ethical"?
Please this has been done to death and really is silly.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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robinr Loyal user Greater Los Angeles area 226 Posts
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I must admit this is something I often think about. One of the hats I wear is as a Jungian oriented clinical psychologist and much of the work I do, and the workshops I give, overlap into areas, some of which could be duplicated using trickery. But I don't use trickery.
On the other hand I enjoy using trickery in other settings. As the King of Siam said: "it's a puzzlement." Or maybe we're all tricksters like a Gurdjieff. Robin |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22834 Posts
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You are all looking for something to "theorise" about and wax philisiphical.
In the context of "theater" where is the word lie even applicable?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27470 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-03-22 21:24, dblatt25 wrote: And that's why so many folks sell magic on an open market and still pretend to be "ethical".
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-03-22 21:24, dblatt25 wrote: Fixt (To use teenage forum vernacular)
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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dblatt25 New user 54 Posts
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I never said that stooges should be used in all cases. To overlook this concept of stooging is absolutely close-minded. Doing pre-show work for a mentalism routine is a form of using a stooge, for example. If I were to have someone pick a card before the show and tell them to keep it in mind, then later during the actual show say, "you were thinking of a card this entire time, right?" and then proceed to name the card as if I were reading her thoughts, is indeed a form of a stooge. Sometimes a stooge can greatly strengthen a magical effect for an entire audience. Josh Riel, you make no sense.
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3068 Posts
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Josh, I don't want to steer this thread OT, but how in the world did you learn such a thing? I had to look it up in the Urban Dictionary to see what you were talking about, and even then there were only something like four or five thumbs in on the vote. Talk about obscure....
dblatt25: no one is insisting that stooges are UNethical. The problem with your initial post is that it doesn't make clear what you want this thread to be about. Whether ethics exist in magic? Whether stooges are ethical? Whether ethics are ethical? What? Or do you want to say that the entire "Right or Wrong" forum is unethical? Or that it shouldn't exist? Please, do not take offense, but someone should take your shotgun away before you hurt yourself. |
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ragingoptimist New user 61 Posts
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There is more to ethics than honesty. If I really did saw a woman in half and killed her, it seems like that would kinda be wrong. Just a thought.
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-03-24 10:47, Josh Riel wrote: Let me 'splain: In fixing your post, I did not imply that you were incorrect, just understated. Therefore I modified or "Fixt" the post to better reflect the actual circumstance, which is in fact more accurate. I think you believed it to be an insult, which it isn't. However, you may still believe it to be an insult... Which, of course, you may. This However may be considered insulting. You make a claim based on an unestablished perspective that was intended to allow you to force agreement on a subject that was not currently in consideration... And as DannyDoyle said has been done to death. A little searching would have offered you all 34,527 opinions on the subject. Of course you knew this or you wouldn't have started the argument. You might just as well walked into a group of strangers and shouted "There is no God, as such I can have your women". And you will of course get the same general reactions. Some folk might not believe in god, and have ugly women, some may in fact be women and be insulted, some may be quite religious... etc. Now do you believe you made them look silly?
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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donrodrigo Special user U.S.A. and Europe 635 Posts
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I've written a thread on the Penn Teller one. I'll add;
Many films for some and expecially our children have become and are very dangerous,not to mention the vid evolution. Do we ourselves ned to dawn arms to stop such. Naaa don't think so guys. How can it be prevented otherwise? Hey we are magicians we have special powers don't we? right were? The moral bit I'm afraid we'll find it out the window, again I refer to it as the million dollar question. I'm sorry but I haven't come with it yet. |
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daffydoug Eternal Order Look mom! I've got 14109 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-03-25 04:54, dblatt25 wrote: I remember over twenty or thirty years ago when I first purchased the Mark Wilson Course in magic. I discovered for the first time, through Mark's own words that stooges are used. Until that time, my idea of a stooge was Curly, Larry and Moe. I was that green. At first I was shocked, but after while, I actually adapted to the idea and began to use a couple of those effects in my show. I see now that the given effects could not have been accomplished without the aid of a stooge. So in that case, it filled a need. BUT, overall, I feel use of stooges should it be kept to a minimum, and only used in rare situations. I think we cross the line when we begin to develop a dependency on stooges. (as guys like Criss Angel and David Blaine seem to be.) Moderation in all things is where I stand.
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
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SeanScottMagic Veteran user 325 Posts
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Look at Andy Kaufman from Taxi and the mileage he achieved with stooges. Maybe a bit controversial, but he clearly accomplished his purpose. In the end, did anyone mind? Maybe a few, then again you make an omelet without breaking some eggs, right? "JK"
Mentalism or magic, make stooging an actual art and no one watching will give you a different reaction regardless. Sean
http://WWW.THEARTOFSEANSCOTT.COM
AVAILABLE EFFECTS: ROAMING RISE RENDER MODOSU FACTORY LINE BANDARIZUMU KI MXL |
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daffydoug Eternal Order Look mom! I've got 14109 Posts
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I didn't know Kaufman performed magic.
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27470 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-03-22 21:24, dblatt25 wrote: you left out "from our audiences so they can enjoy the show" As to ethics among practitioners... copyists, sellouts and "sellers" are more part of the market than the craft.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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leftytheclown Loyal user Illinois 255 Posts
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Hypocrite comes from Latin and in essence means one who wears a mask or perhaps better and actor. Magicians, actors, and most entertainers wear a "professional" mask. Magicians try to deceive and entertain. We pay actors large sums of money to pretend. Are there ethics underneath all that? That depends. What is the source of ethics? If it just people who come together and say this is how it is supposed to be, anyone can give the big "sez who" (coined by Authur Leff). Where is the standard for ethics? Find that and then you can discuss what is right or wrong. Until then, it is just a matter of opinion.
Lefty (aka) Sterling Dare
Author: Money Menagerie Book and DVD |
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Posted: Mar 23, 2008 01:24 am 
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