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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts 
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Pretty much where I said... "unlawful" defines the circumstances of the killing, not whether the person was convicted or not.
Example: I see you withdrawing money from the ATM, and I want your money, so I intentionally shoot you in the head. That's unlawful in every state in the union. It's an intentional killing of another human being, without justification or excuse (e.g. self defense). By virtue of its being an unlawful killing, it's murder at the time I do it, regardless of what any jury says about it. Example: Someone breaks into my house and attacks me with deadly force (though unsuccessfully); in defense of my own life (and just in case we're in some goofy state, let's say I'm unable to flee, because he's attacked me in a room that only has one door, which he's on the other side of), I in turn use deadly force, and he actually dies. It is legal to use deadly force in defense of one's own life, so this is not an unlawful killing. Therefore, it's not murder, even if a jury convicts me.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3068 Posts
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Actually, Lobo, I gave the etymology of the words "ethical" and "moral" in a post above.
The dictionary citations are about as helpful as...well...dictionary citations. Whichever definitions you choose, "lawful" and "ethical" behavior are almost never the same. Originally the word ethical was specifically personal. Aristotle's great contribution to these things was to attempt an inquiry as to whether one could build an entire polis with good "ethics", what the standard would be for those "ethics", what kind of "laws" a polis would need to establish some kind of community "ethos" (if such a thing is possible), and so on. I don't want to get snippy, but this is yet another example of us trying to reinvent the wheel. Since no one really seriously reads Aristotle anymore, we don't realize that he went through ALL this stuff and asked ALL these questions. Maybe his answers were incorrect. Maybe his answers were correct. How would we know, if we don't confront him? In NO OTHER FIELD OF STUDY do we so readily ignore previous discussions. Somehow modern society (schools?) have conditioned us to think we all have a say about how we feel about right and wrong, but we don't feel compelled to hit the books. Neither do we show any real respect for those who have. You can get a license to practice law, but you don't need any license to talk about what the difference is between "ethical" and "moral". A VERY strange phenomenon. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-06-23 01:58, stoneunhinged wrote: The dictionary definitions were fairly helpful as quick reference to make the point you made in the post you're referencing -- that it's inaccurate to treat "ethics" and "morals" as two wholly distinct things. I wouldn't agree that "lawful" and "ethical" behavior are almost never the same. Laws are attempts to influence the behavior of members of a society, and they're often (usually?) done with reference to what is considered moral or ethical behavior, certainly with respect to the criminal law. For example, most people consider it immoral (and/or unethical) to steal, murder, etc., and thus those things are illegal. This isn't to say that the fact that something is illegal makes it immoral (and/or unethical); however, there's certainly a connection between the two, as the belief that acts are immoral and/or unethical, coupled with their negative consequences, are what lead to their being made illegal. That's why, for instance, crimes have a mental state requirement; it's not just the action that makes a crime. If we're in a restaurant with a coat room, and on the way out, I grab your coat mistakenly believing it's mine, no crime has been committed, even though the act has been the same as if I'd committed theft. I have to have the intent of depriving your property to make the act of walking off with your coat immoral...and illegal. Accidents aren't immoral OR unethical...and in most cases, therefore not illegal, either.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3068 Posts
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OK, maybe the dictionary definitions were helpful. Just as long as you weren't providing them to disagree with me.
Most laws have nothing to do with morality. Most laws regulate government expenditures. But I get your drift. Anyway, sorry for the interruption. You were only trying to help, and I got snippy. Sorry. On with the battle. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-06-23 02:36, stoneunhinged wrote: Awww, it's ok...I did that once (cough cough).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Posted: Jun 23, 2008 04:18 am 
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